Aderans

[534623]

No, I'm actually asking 534623 why he thinks it won't work.

I thought I've already explained this issue in this thread here?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=99905&postcount=887

The scientific quote in my post (I couldn't edit the post anymore) is from this paper (last paragraph):

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v121/n6/full/5602054a.html

By the way - why don't you guys give me a simple ANSWER?

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showpost.php?p=101226&postcount=898

Now I'm asking the 4th time: what exactly is Dr. Washenik saying in this video concerning this problem, or in other words:
why did they cast away their initial idea of creating thousands of brand new follicles from scratch?
Is it really so difficult to watch the video and to report here what exactly he is saying concerning this issue? I even described with a pic where in the video you can easily find this point. I mean, WHAT FOR is this thread? Discussing WHEN they will sell you "the cure"?

[StinkySmurf]

hey man, read my post on past page, I have not said that it would not work:

Hey Boldy,

No, I'm actually asking 534623 why he thinks it won't work. He has obviously read this stuff so I kinda just want to hear what his reason is for thinking it doesn't work.

Thanks!

[Boldy]

I know you've said this before, but I'm not a science guy so maybe I just don't get it. Can you explain in some very simple way why you think Ji Gami doesn't work? Is it because you don't think they solved the shedding problem or is there more to it?

Thanks!

hey man, read my post on past page, I have not said that it would not work:

Its not that bad, I mean if you have allot of money and patience, Aderans could give you a head with hair with their current strategy, but I'm not surprised if it took xx amount sessions + years to get there. and then is still the question will these hairs last for ever? I must read or find literature of what they are currently doing.

because the old good aga DP cells will be reactivated again with this new aderans approach. questions will rise will the miniaturize again by dht?

secondly you saw on the video some results are good, but not a full head of hare not a cure after 1 session, like the quote says, it will probably require multiple sessions to (maybe ) reach the desired results (full thicks NW0 for example). and than still it will leave us with the first question howling will these hairs no one knows that yet.


Its a good start, but not what I hoped for. healthy dermal papilla's that are not affected by DHT thats the perfect cure.

thats my opinion.

[StinkySmurf]

hi DP paranoia,
can you tell me please, in which literature did you find out, that culturing of hair follicle (stem)cells (=MULTIPLYING them) is "less complicated" then DP culture?

I mean, I know lots of papers which tell the contrary and these papers even explain about the problems involved - contrary to your beloved (but useless) DP culturing.

Oh, and what part of the Intercytex results don't you understand? Guess what they did, and which cells they multiplied and injected thereafter - and how "efficient" doing this has been.

I know you've said this before, but I'm not a science guy so maybe I just don't get it. Can you explain in some very simple way why you think Ji Gami doesn't work? Is it because you don't think they solved the shedding problem or is there more to it?

Thanks!

[534623]

they seem to isolate the cells around the dermal sheeth, culture them for 2 weeks (what I understand from the video), and then inject them back into the client. this process is less complicated then DP culture, but less efficient..

hi DP paranoia,
can you tell me please, in which literature did you find out, that culturing of hair follicle (stem)cells (=MULTIPLYING them) is "less complicated" then DP culture?

I mean, I know lots of papers which tell the contrary and these papers even explain about the problems involved - contrary to your beloved (but useless) DP culturing.

Oh, and what part of the Intercytex results don't you understand? Guess what they did, and which cells they multiplied and injected thereafter - and how "efficient" doing this has been.

[StinkySmurf]

yes I just found out after science @ hairloss help posted the youtube video...

Its not that bad, I mean if you have allot of money and patience, Aderans could give you a head with hair with their current strategy, but Im not supprised if it took xx amount sessions + years to get there. and then is still the question will these hairs last for ever? I must read or find literature of what they are currently doing.


they seem to isolate the cells around the dermal sheeth, culture them for 2 weeks (what I understand from the video), and then inject them back into the client. this process is less complicated then DP culture, but less efficient..


I guess we have to find our own lab if we want DP culture within 1-2 years.

anything is possible that is fore sure, but it would take knowledge and efforts.


I

I can't seem to find that post by Science. Do you mind sharing that link?

Thanks!

[Boldy]

Boldy are you serious!!!!

Aderans gave up on the DP idea! when did they announce that? What's going on all of a sudden!!!!!!!

I just read Dr Nigam claiming the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!

yes I just found out after science @ hairloss help posted the youtube video...

Its not that bad, I mean if you have allot of money and patience, Aderans could give you a head with hair with their current strategy, but Im not supprised if it took xx amount sessions + years to get there. and then is still the question will these hairs last for ever? I must read or find literature of what they are currently doing.


they seem to isolate the cells around the dermal sheeth, culture them for 2 weeks (what I understand from the video), and then inject them back into the client. this process is less complicated then DP culture, but less efficient..


I guess we have to find our own lab if we want DP culture within 1-2 years.

anything is possible that is fore sure, but it would take knowledge and efforts.


I

[Desmond84]

Boldy are you serious!!!!

Aderans gave up on the DP idea! when did they announce that? What's going on all of a sudden!!!!!!!

I just read Dr Nigam claiming the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!

[Desmond84]

ah, yeah, right. In the past, Dr. Hoffmann has always very impressed about the Intercytex guys. Here is the reason in chronological order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2nd March 2001

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/pr2001/2001-03-02/

Hair loss affects approximately forty percent of men and twenty percent of women aged fifty and over. In the US alone, an estimated 40 million men and 20 million women suffer from baldness and spend $1.5 billion annually on hair loss therapies. Addressing this market, Intercytex is pioneering novel methods for the transplant of dermal hair follicle cells. This technology could be used as a means of regenerating hair, overcoming the need to remove whole hairs from one part of the body and subsequent transplant to another. It also opens the potential for large numbers of hair-generating cells to be expanded in tissue culture and packaged as a one-step solution to hair-loss.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th May 2004
Based on emerging positive results from its Phase I study, Intercytex also announced it is planning to initiate Phase II US and UK multi-centre clinical trials of TrichoCyte later this year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th October 2006

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2006/2006-10-06/

Intercytex awarded £1.85m grant from the DTI to automate production of innovative hair regeneration therapy
The grant will be used primarily to develop a dedicated robotic system to support the commercial-scale production of dermal papilla (DP) cells, the main cells involved in hair regeneration and the key component of ICX-TRC. ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product which has recently entered Phase II clinical trials.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
25th September 2007

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-09-25/

Hair regeneration – first 12 patients treated in Phase II trial of ICX-TRC
Post period-end highlights
Preliminary data from Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration shows increased hair counts and good safety profile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th December 2007

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-12-18/

In September this year we announced the first results from the current Phase II trial. In the sub-group of subjects (5 in total) whose scalp was pre-stimulated at the time of injection all subjects showed substantial and visible increased hair counts at 6 and/or 12 weeks (13-105&#37. We believe this increased hair production is attributable to the interaction between the injected DP cells and the stimulated resident hair producing cells.
A further 5 subjects have now been treated with ICX-TRC using the pre-stimulation technique with 2 more expected in January. By the end of March 2008 we expect to announce preliminary 12 week data on up to 16 subjects in total and preliminary 24 week data on up to 10 subjects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th September 2008

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2008/2008-09-18/

Intercytex Group plc – Interim results for the six months ended 30 June 2008
ICX-TRC - hair regeneration
Data from the Phase II trial shows increase in hair count in 11 out of 14 (79%) evaluable subjects at 24 weeks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th January 2009

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-01-26a/

Intercytex implements restructuring actions to reduce cash burn
Completion of the Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration continues to be expected at the end of this quarter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th March 2009

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-03-26/

ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product. Phase II trial completed
· Positive data from Phase II trial announced today - increase in hair count in the majority of evaluable subjects observed at 48 weeks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The big OOOPS...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
October 16 2009

http://www.baldingblog.com/2009/10/16/did-intercytex-fail/

Did Intercytex Fail?
"What happened was that the positive results of clinical trials were not as efficient as the lab ones. In other words although promising and exciting, not quite good enough to justify applying for a therapeutic product for the public."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyway, so what can we learn from these "confident and exciting trial results" reports?

Anyway, Aderans bought "OOOPS" a few years ago - and they are still in the "OOOPS phase" ... ... even with the usage of BOTH cell types, epithelial and mesenchymal ("inducer and responder cells") - from the DHT resistent donor area.

Wow! Reading this really made me depressed! Is ADERANS really going down the drain like Intercytex!?

Why is MPB so complicated!

[The Alchemist]

Well there are at least THREE that are close and two of those are neck and neck; Aderans and Histogen both know first come first serve in regards to seeing a f*ckload of money come rolling in... and then of course theres Replicel which are a bit behind. There are some others too and lets not forget the dude who's already got the cure; Dr. Roland Lauster. This guy has cracked the whole problem more than 2 years ago!

*frustrated*

Replicel has on their website FAQ page a statement that says they hope to release in non-western jurisdictions in 2015.

"Nevertheless, if the technology proves safe and effective, RepliCel anticipates that a commercial product may be available in 2015 in non-Western jurisdictions."

"IF" haha! Hopefully they can do better than the phase I results.

http://www.replicel.com/hair-loss/faqs/

Not putting any hope into this company, but i'll watch them out of morbid curiosity.

[hellouser]

The profit motive is what will bring us (working) new treatments in the end, let's be honest.

The best thing for ALL of us is if there was a real 'arms war' amongst companies developing hairloss treatments. The first big new hairloss treatment to hit the mass-market would hopefully trigger a Cambrian explosion...

Well there are at least THREE that are close and two of those are neck and neck; Aderans and Histogen both know first come first serve in regards to seeing a f*ckload of money come rolling in... and then of course theres Replicel which are a bit behind. There are some others too and lets not forget the dude who's already got the cure; Dr. Roland Lauster. This guy has cracked the whole problem more than 2 years ago!

*frustrated*

[Kirby_]

And.... they're only going to make real money....

.... if the product fcking works!!!!!!

The profit motive is what will bring us (working) new treatments in the end, let's be honest.

The best thing for ALL of us is if there was a real 'arms war' amongst companies developing hairloss treatments. The first big new hairloss treatment to hit the mass-market would hopefully trigger a Cambrian explosion...

[Kirby_]

The Intercytex case is, depressingly, very instructive. All the posters on here making claims about Histogen and Aderans, as if commercialization is a foregone conclusion, need to understand that even a successful phase II is no guarantee of approval.

Wise words. I know we've all got to stay in a positive state of mind and avoid an Iron Man type downward spiral, but it's far from certain that any of these procedures will be ever be more than vapourware. I can see full well why on certain other hair loss forums, Aderans, Histogen etc are literally never discussed or even mentioned. The risk of investing too much mental energy into what may only be a false hope is great.

Still, this year may yet offer us hopeful signs... Just would like to be positively surprised by all this for once.

[The Alchemist]

The Intercytex case is, depressingly, very instructive. All the posters on here making claims about Histogen and Aderans, as if commercialization is a foregone conclusion, need to understand that even a successful phase II is no guarantee of approval. Phase III is a big undertaking for a company and is extremely expensive - they'll enter it only when they are highly confident in the their protocol

I'm not convinced that what Aderans has shown to date will be convincing enough to justify the company sinking millions into a phase III trial. Hopefully their final results from the phase II are significantly better than what they've shown to date. The presentation they made (posted recently) was not exactly inspiring. I guess we'll have to keep an eye on them and see if they make any announcements for initiation of phase III. If we don't hear any phase III talk by the mid point of this year, i'd begin to worry.

[534623]

There is still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8DtIVIA_3g

ah, yeah, right. In the past, Dr. Hoffmann has always very impressed about the Intercytex guys. Here is the reason in chronological order ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2nd March 2001

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/pr2001/2001-03-02/

Hair loss affects approximately forty percent of men and twenty percent of women aged fifty and over. In the US alone, an estimated 40 million men and 20 million women suffer from baldness and spend $1.5 billion annually on hair loss therapies. Addressing this market, Intercytex is pioneering novel methods for the transplant of dermal hair follicle cells. This technology could be used as a means of regenerating hair, overcoming the need to remove whole hairs from one part of the body and subsequent transplant to another. It also opens the potential for large numbers of hair-generating cells to be expanded in tissue culture and packaged as a one-step solution to hair-loss.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th May 2004
Based on emerging positive results from its Phase I study, Intercytex also announced it is planning to initiate Phase II US and UK multi-centre clinical trials of TrichoCyte later this year.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6th October 2006

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2006/2006-10-06/

Intercytex awarded £1.85m grant from the DTI to automate production of innovative hair regeneration therapy
The grant will be used primarily to develop a dedicated robotic system to support the commercial-scale production of dermal papilla (DP) cells, the main cells involved in hair regeneration and the key component of ICX-TRC. ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product which has recently entered Phase II clinical trials.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
25th September 2007

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-09-25/

Hair regeneration – first 12 patients treated in Phase II trial of ICX-TRC
Post period-end highlights
Preliminary data from Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration shows increased hair counts and good safety profile
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th December 2007

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2007/2007-12-18/

In September this year we announced the first results from the current Phase II trial. In the sub-group of subjects (5 in total) whose scalp was pre-stimulated at the time of injection all subjects showed substantial and visible increased hair counts at 6 and/or 12 weeks (13-105%). We believe this increased hair production is attributable to the interaction between the injected DP cells and the stimulated resident hair producing cells.
A further 5 subjects have now been treated with ICX-TRC using the pre-stimulation technique with 2 more expected in January. By the end of March 2008 we expect to announce preliminary 12 week data on up to 16 subjects in total and preliminary 24 week data on up to 10 subjects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18th September 2008

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2008/2008-09-18/

Intercytex Group plc – Interim results for the six months ended 30 June 2008
ICX-TRC - hair regeneration
Data from the Phase II trial shows increase in hair count in 11 out of 14 (79%) evaluable subjects at 24 weeks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th January 2009

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-01-26a/

Intercytex implements restructuring actions to reduce cash burn
Completion of the Phase II trial of ICX-TRC for hair regeneration continues to be expected at the end of this quarter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
26th March 2009

http://www.intercytex.com/icx/news/releases/2009/2009-03-26/

ICX-TRC, a hair regeneration product. Phase II trial completed
· Positive data from Phase II trial announced today - increase in hair count in the majority of evaluable subjects observed at 48 weeks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The big OOOPS...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
October 16 2009

http://www.baldingblog.com/2009/10/16/did-intercytex-fail/

Did Intercytex Fail?
"What happened was that the positive results of clinical trials were not as efficient as the lab ones. In other words although promising and exciting, not quite good enough to justify applying for a therapeutic product for the public."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyway, so what can we learn from these "confident and exciting trial results" reports?

Anyway, Aderans bought "OOOPS" a few years ago - and they are still in the "OOOPS phase" ... ... even with the usage of BOTH cell types, epithelial and mesenchymal ("inducer and responder cells") - from the DHT resistent donor area.