Aderans

[Desmond84]

Very interesting theory from Roger_that @ hairsite. What are your opinions guys? It may very well be true!

Here's what Roger_that reckons:

"So far Aderans has disappointed big time. This process is taking a RIDICULOUS amount of time (over 10 years -- far longer than I expected) and now they keep lowering expectations. At first it was supposed to be "designer hair", now we're talking about bald spots being improved ever-so-slightly with a few extra hairs around the outer edges. Nothing that clearly takes a balding person and makes him look like he isn't balding. Which was exactly what they were shouting to high heaven about when they started. So it's really disappointing.

The one factor which might change this bad news, however is COMPOUNDABIILITY.

The reason for this is the following: Let's say a "bad" treatment is something that only gives 1/10 of the results you'd like.

Well, even a bad treatment can be repeated 10 times. If results are compoundable, then repeating that bad treatment 10 times might result in a "good treatment" with truly cosmetically useful results.

Remember, Aderans is NOT a drug. It's something completely different from Propecia or Rogaine. Drugs aren't really "compoundable" in the same sense. You start using them and either they work or they don't. If they work, you'll see a gradual improvement, and then you'll reach a plateau, where no further improvement is possible.

Of course, you MIGHT be able to improve the results of Propecia dramatically if you, say, took 20 pills a day. But then you'd also die. Or you could improve the results of Rogaine dramatically if you rubbed it into your scalp all day, every day. But again, if you did that, you'd die.

All drugs have a TOXICITY related to dosage. Their efficacy be compoundable in theory, but not in practice, because if you go beyond a certain point in dosing, you get extremely sick, or you die. Sure, you can go into "maintenance" mode and keep using the drug every day for the rest of your life. But that's not the same as increasing the daily dosage. If you increase the daily dosage beyond a certain point, it may actually be GREAT for your hair, but you will get very sick and you may die.

That's why nobody takes 20 Propecia tablets a day.

HT is definitely not compoundable except in the most limited sense. The doctors will tell you the more grafts you get, the more coverage you'll get, but very soon you'll hit a concrete wall. You run out of donor hair. And all the while they're doing irreparable damage to your scalp.

Aderans' treatment different in that there is no perceived toxicity to it, and there's no brick wall hit from depleting donor hair or savaging the scalp. They're injecting a culture of your own cells. So it is literally something you could have done safely, an unlimited number of times, depending of course on your funds.

I have my own theories about what contributes to Aderans' efficacy or lack thereof, in any given situation.

Injecting cells into the scalp is like a crap shoot. Unlike in the embryo where proto-follicles are held together by naturally occurring embryonic chemicals and growth factors (which are very specific to the embryo and fetus and no longer exist in the adult), the cells injected by companies like Aderans and Replicel, once they get into your scalp, are NOT naturally held together in a ball to form a proto-follicle. So as soon as they're injected, they tend to want to flow apart. Some of them may be absorbed by nearby hair follicles, which incorporate them into their structures and in this way become larger. But I believe this is rare. That's why I say it's like a crap shoot. Most of the cells injected float away and are wasted. Maybe 90% of the cells are wasted. They never contribute to any new hair growth at all. Maybe 10% are lucky enough to get incorporated into existing follicles, which might enlarge vellus follicles and in some cases turn them into terminal follicles. That is what probably accounts for the slight "new" hair growth seen in the Aderans patients. The remainder of the injected cells simply drift apart, never to be heard from again. They may be taken up by the bloodstream, eaten by macrophages, or just float away and die.

There is almost no way to address "crap shoot" problem in a single application. Aderans has tried using various tiny matrixes (matrices) or biodegradable scaffolds to hold the injected cells together long enough to form a follicle. I don't know what the specific results of that idea are, because to my knowledge they haven't been reported anywhere. The fact that such results haven't been reported, even just in passing, to me is not promising. Maybe these scaffolds aren't working nearly as well as they had conceived. This scaffold/matrix idea might be great in theory, but maybe it's too complicated and fraught with problems to work in practice. That might be why we're not hearing much about it. Sure there are various patents for it, but has the idea actually panned out?

However, forgetting about the scaffold idea, even a really disappointing treatment in which 10% of the injected cells cause some improvement, and 90% of the injected cells are wasted, should be, by its very nature, compoundable. If 10% of the injected cells are lucky enough to get incorporated into nearby follicles in each injection, causing those follicles to grow and become cosmetically visible, then of course that is a very low yield. But repeating that poor-yield procedure 10 times, would perhaps give you an impressive end result.

Unlike with drugs or HT, where you increase risk the "more" of the procedure you use, with Aderans procedure you do not increase risk on successive treatments. And each time, you have the same odds of growing hair. With the same odds each time and zero increased risk, results should be compoundable.

I'm not sure about this theory... Only time will tell. But that's what I'm relying on now for Aderans. I think I'm right on this. But if this theory doesn't pan out, Aderans may become yet another colossal failure"

[neversaynever]

What is exciting is that the results so far are from just one injection. Looking forward to any updates.

[neversaynever]

Well thank God, Aderans bought Intercytex.

I'm dying to read their Phase 2 trial results...there's so many questions:

- Did the hairs last for the last 5 years?

- Did patients remain above baseline for at least 24 months?

- Was any adverse events reported?

.....

Are they planning to reveal their phase 2 results to the public? When?

[neversaynever]

I think everyones getting carried away. Intercytex was bought by Aderans, but aderans are saying they are not creating new follicles. Improvements so far has been in turning vellus hairs into terminal and we wont know more until phase 3. They are still, in my opinion, the best prospect of the 'future treatments'.

Im sure aderans are working hard on this, to investigate.

Can DP cells form the actual DP structure in vitro? Perhaps inserting the actual structure into the scalp might be the answer. We know that a partial follicle containing a DP can regenerate into a new follicle.

[yeahyeahyeah]

Hey Boldy,

I just finished reading this journal you posted:


Hair follicle neogenesis induced by cultured human scalp dermal papilla cells

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9doxfq9hqny8olc/8%20hair%20folucle%20newogenesis%20induced%20by%20cultured%20human%20scalp%20dermal%20papilla%20cells.pdf

How the hell did Intercytex go bust! They managed to grow brand new follicles on HUMAN skin grafts!!!!! They did it! They really did it and they went under!!!

I really don't understand the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!!!!!

I mean look at these photos!!!!

I think its because they wern't consistent enough.

[Desmond84]

It should be a money issue man, I can not think of other reason. probably some company that had financial interest in selling snake oil, had bought them off... Dp culture is the cure, if you can do this process efficiently, than.....

Well thank God, Aderans bought Intercytex.

I'm dying to read their Phase 2 trial results...there's so many questions:

- Did the hairs last for the last 5 years?

- Did patients remain above baseline for at least 24 months?

- Was any adverse events reported?

.....

[Thinning87]

wow that is crazy I can't believe a company that close would have problems

[Boldy]

double post.

[Boldy]

It should be a money issue man, I can not think of other reason. probably some company that had financial interest in selling snake oil, had bought them off... Dp culture is the cure, if you can do this process efficiently, than.....

Hey Boldy,

I just finished reading this journal you posted:


Hair follicle neogenesis induced by cultured human scalp dermal papilla cells

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9doxfq9hqny8olc/8%20hair%20folucle%20newogenesis%20induced%20by%20cultured%20human%20scalp%20dermal%20papilla%20cells.pdf

How the hell did Intercytex go bust! They managed to grow brand new follicles on HUMAN skin grafts!!!!! They did it! They really did it and they went under!!!

I really don't understand the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!!!!!

I mean look at these photos!!!!

[Boldy]

hey man,

Im glad there are some objective persons on this forum, that actually do read studies!

I agree with your post, since it contains only facts, but I have some add regarding the following quote:

In another word, after DP transplantation, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle (this is known as a "chimeric" follicle btw):

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!

That is true, But "injected"DP cells are also known to produce whole new hairfolicle by themselves. this means you would even be posible to create a lower hairline than you ever had, for example a negative hairline. The following picture demonstrates that:




This approach is very hopefull guys

[Desmond84]

Hey Boldy,

I just finished reading this journal you posted:


Hair follicle neogenesis induced by cultured human scalp dermal papilla cells

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9doxfq9hqny8olc/8%20hair%20folucle%20newogenesis%20induced%20by%20cultured%20human%20scalp%20dermal%20papilla%20cells.pdf

How the hell did Intercytex go bust! They managed to grow brand new follicles on HUMAN skin grafts!!!!! They did it! They really did it and they went under!!!

I really don't understand the pharmaceutical industry anymore!!!!!!

I mean look at these photos!!!!

[Desmond84]

What is your opinion on DP?

Here's a little summary

DHT is by far the main culprit, hence why Finasteride is so powerful at halting hairloss. Now:

1) To date, we have only found Androgen receptors on the dermal papillae & sebaceous glands of hair follicles.

• DP cells are the most important contributor to follicle growth and cycling.
  
• Sebaceous glands don't serve any roles in terms of growth, they are more of a supportive structure.

Hence, the reason why Aderans decided to use DP cells! Here's the link:

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v9.../5612065a.html

2) Here's the most AMAZING finding: back in late 90's it was found that "Dermal papillae extracted from occipital scalp hair follicles (donor area) lack Androgen receptors!

Here's the link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...706.x/abstract

That's why I think at least in theory, DHT-resistance may be possible!

In another word, after DP transplantation, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle (this is known as a "chimeric" follicle btw):

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!

Here's a little excerpt from one of the publications I found:

"The treatment area would be miniaturized follicles that are cosmetically insignificant, and the strategy would be to rejuvenate miniaturized follicles by the insertion of hair-inductive DP cells. Because the cellular target in androgenetic alopecia is the dermal papilla, providing the follicle with new, androgen-insensitive DP cells might reactivate the follicle to form a normal (terminal) hair. "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884703/

Furthermore:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate." They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

This is the best news we could have had. Basically this means that the effects of Aderans would be PERMANENT!

Once you have Dermal Papillae from occipital region (donor area) transplanted onto the top of your scalp, there are sufficient DP present that function regardless of scalp levels of DHT leading to continued healthy hair growth cycles; i.e. your hair will remain DHT-resistant for a substantial period of your life!

So, I believe in the future, hair transplant surgeons would simply refuse to perform fue/HST/etc until you have managed to immunise your remaining hair against DHT. Once immunised, they will then perform a high density transplant.

One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:

• DP cells are used by Aderans
• DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them.

[FearTheLoss]

phase 3?

Since when?

Histogen isn't phase III yet, I'm saying when they move to phase III...

[534623]

Wow, Boldy thx for all this great info!
It's definitely good to see you share my opinions on DP!

What is your opinion on DP?

[yeahyeahyeah]

Yeah but those results were at 12 and 24 weeks after one set of injections...then they did two sets and got better results..I'm guessing now in phase III they will do more and see where that goes..the vellius hairs will turn to terminal and with the addition of propecia one could hope for even much better results!

phase 3?

Since when?