3rd Procedure with Gho

[didi]

I'm not much of a car guy, but I'd much rather have my hair back than 2 Porsches or other material things.

I agree with your point that $105k is a lot of money but it's the time required that's the biggest problem for me.

time is a real killer with hst, if a advanced nw6 guys in his early/mid 20s walks in hasci and starts procedures he will be 30 or 30+ before he has full head of hair,
guy in 30s will be in 40s considering session are only about 1400 grafts

HST needs upgrade or else it will never be taken seriously and you see why,
imagne one day you just walk in hasci and have 5000 grafts, thats gonna be game changr

it makes perfect sense as to why fue/fut docs are reluctant to adopt hst,
telling patient he will see final result in 2020 wouldnt be good for business,

[JJJJrS]

Your using Iron Mans donor there as an example right? That looks like a huge amount of work to map out the area the way you have done, credit to you!

Sounds like your busy at the moment, but if you get round to it, then please do have a look and let me know what % of donor regeneration your seeing?

The original fileden account is due to reset, so all original photos will be available.

That's Iron_Man's donor and yes it did take longer than I expected to analyse.

When the FileDen bandwidth resets and I have some spare time, I will definitely do an analysis, probably covering a different area than IM.

[gc83uk]

Analysis looks good gc. I haven't had a chance to look at things, but as long as you can map the area out, counting the hairs shouldn't be a problem at all. This is how I kept track of things:

Right Ear, Day 3 - Rough Draft
Right Ear, Day 7 - Rough Draft

Your using Iron Mans donor there as an example right? That looks like a huge amount of work to map out the area the way you have done, credit to you!

Sounds like your busy at the moment, but if you get round to it, then please do have a look and let me know what % of donor regeneration your seeing?

The original fileden account is due to reset, so all original photos will be available.

[JJJJrS]

HTs are very expensive unless you get it done is some 3rd world country for $1 a graft,

105k can buy you 2 brand new porsches in USA, insane

I'm not much of a car guy, but I'd much rather have my hair back than 2 Porsches or other material things.

I agree with your point that $105k is a lot of money but it's the time required that's the biggest problem for me.

[JJJJrS]

That would speed up the process significantly.

80%+ of the donor hair regrows and to cover a norwood 6 with hair requires about 15,000-20,000 grafts depending on desired density. Currently he can only do about 2,500 grafts per session. So, a little simple math;

2,500 grafts per session with Gho.
15k USD per 2,500 grafts.
1 year between sessions.
From NW6 to NW1/NW0 it would take;

18,000 grafts required / 2,500 = 7 visits, so 7 years.

7 x 15k = $105,000

The problem is, HASCI very rarely does procedures of 2.5k grafts. 1.5k grafts is much more common. So you can redo the math but the end result is a lot of procedures and a lot of time.

If we want see more restorations of patients at an advanced stage of hairloss, HASCI has to increase the number of grafts. I really hope IM's idea works out or that Gho or some other researcher could find a solution to this soon. For some of us who are young, and aren't sure what NW level we'll end up as, this is very important. Most people don't have the time, money, and patience required for 7+ procedures.

I suppose one could do it in a different way; go the Gho route 3-4 years and in the 4th or 5th year go with Dr. Rahal for remaining 8-10k grafts in one shot.

Lets hope Aderans comes out next year so we can expect either a complete halt to any further hair loss and potential regrowth. From when I spoke with reps from Aderans on the phone, I was told they had some fantastic results in the crown, so its obvious theyre getting regrowth.

If one has the money, Gho + Aderans would probably be the fastest solution until a full out cure comes out..... or just keep repeating with Gho until your essentially cured.

I'm confident that a "recipient doubling" procedure, like what Iron_Man alludes to, is feasible. Of course, there are some practical issues but I believe we'll hear more about this in the near future.

I personally wouldn't be able to stomach a FUT procedure. I just don't like the idea of someone cutting a large piece of scalp from my head. But FUE may be a possibility, especially if you combine it with the "recipient doubling" idea. My hope is that HST becomes more mainstream over the years, and that quality FUE surgeons like Feriduni, Bisanga and Cole can get their hands on it also.

Anything extra like Aderans or a propecia without side-effects would be great.

[JJJJrS]

Using Iron Mans circled photo of my day 3 donor, I analysed the aqua and blue circles looking for regrowth on the later day 8 photo. Anyone can do the same, but you can see from below, the red circles show the regrowth and the black circles no growth. I'm sure IronMan will do a much more conclusive version, but I could wait much longer

In the above there is 38 points of which 32 are showing regrowth (red), 2 of the black circles I can't be sure because of overlapping hair.

I make that approximately 85% regrowth.

It's also worth noting that this 85% includes regrowth out of the aqua circles as well as the blue, which according to Iron Man have been extracted more than once in prior procedures.

I wasn't sure what the purple circles represented, but I'm sure Iron Man will fill in the blanks.

Analysis looks good gc. I haven't had a chance to look at things, but as long as you can map the area out, counting the hairs shouldn't be a problem at all. This is how I kept track of things:

Right Ear, Day 3 - Rough Draft
Right Ear, Day 7 - Rough Draft

[didi]

HTs are very expensive unless you get it done is some 3rd world country for $1 a graft,

105k can buy you 2 brand new porsches in USA, insane


btw, indonesian hasci site says 3000 grafts is possible in one session


3000 x 4 = 12 000 grafts spaced 9 months apart, 36 months/3 years

[hellouser]

2 follicles from 1 is revolutionary, but when you start talking about 3, 10, or 100 from 1, that is when you see the real potential of this type of treatment.

That would speed up the process significantly.

80%+ of the donor hair regrows and to cover a norwood 6 with hair requires about 15,000-20,000 grafts depending on desired density. Currently he can only do about 2,500 grafts per session. So, a little simple math;

2,500 grafts per session with Gho.
15k USD per 2,500 grafts.
1 year between sessions.
From NW6 to NW1/NW0 it would take;

18,000 grafts required / 2,500 = 7 visits, so 7 years.

7 x 15k = $105,000

Gerard Joling I'm sure has that kind of money. Wesley Snejder I'm sure thats POCKET change for him. For most of us, 105k is many years of work. Average salary in Canada is about 45-50k/year (before taxes). 7 years to go back to a full head of hair is also a long time.

I suppose one could do it in a different way; go the Gho route 3-4 years and in the 4th or 5th year go with Dr. Rahal for remaining 8-10k grafts in one shot.

Lets hope Aderans comes out next year so we can expect either a complete halt to any further hair loss and potential regrowth. From when I spoke with reps from Aderans on the phone, I was told they had some fantastic results in the crown, so its obvious theyre getting regrowth.

If one has the money, Gho + Aderans would probably be the fastest solution until a full out cure comes out..... or just keep repeating with Gho until your essentially cured.

I also don't see his prices staying at 15k for 2,500 grafts after 7 years, especially since by that time either Aderans, Histogen or Replicel will definitely be on the market... or even Dr. Lauster from Berlin will have a commercial product by then as well (which if he does, its game over for every competitor). Dr. Lauster already has the cure too, I really want to know what he's up to with his research and use in the market. If anyone is fluent in German, we need to send some emails (or try English).

[gc83uk]

All the cyan (aqua) colored circles are the "re-reharvested" extraction sites - namely, extraction sites of the regenerated grafts from the 2nd procedure.
The green circles are the normal regrowth sites from the 2nd procedure and the blue circles are the new extractions sites (3rd HST). The red circles are the not regenerated sites from the 2nd procedure. In the left corner below is, as always, the extraction site #1 (green circle).

Using Iron Mans circled photo of my day 3 donor, I analysed the aqua and blue circles looking for regrowth on the later day 8 photo. Anyone can do the same, but you can see from below, the red circles show the regrowth and the black circles no growth. I'm sure IronMan will do a much more conclusive version, but I could wait much longer

In the above there is 38 points of which 32 are showing regrowth (red), 2 of the black circles I can't be sure because of overlapping hair.

I make that approximately 85% regrowth.

It's also worth noting that this 85% includes regrowth out of the aqua circles as well as the blue, which according to Iron Man have been extracted more than once in prior procedures.

I wasn't sure what the purple circles represented, but I'm sure Iron Man will fill in the blanks.

[534623]

Interesting. If I'm interpreting things correctly, this technique could theoretically be applied by FUE or FUT surgeons as well?

Exactly. That’s what I meant recently with "fair and balanced competition".

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19438685

“CONCLUSION: Duplicative surgery might represent a successful alternative for hair transplantation, because both portions are capable of regenerating a healthy hair.”

These words are actually meant as SUGGESTION to get these findings –on a regular and consistent basis- to work also with normal hair transplant techniques (FUT or normal FUE), to get 2 follicles from 1 FOR THE RECIPIENT AREA.

Try to imagine what happens if someone or even more clinics out there get this to work on a regular and consistent basis – Dr. Gho would be almost “forced” to offer as soon as possible something like “HST 3.0”. Competition is healthy for our bald heads…

I am assuming you will be dissecting the hair follicle after it has been extracted? Would trauma to the follicles not be an issue when doing something like that?

As you can see in the 1st pic on the left side, Dr. Gho's follicles/grafts are already severe traumatized. So if you simply horizontally bisect them in addition (after HST extraction from the donor area) - try to define "severe traumatized" and from which point of view:
from an old school surgeon's point of view or from a tissue engineer's and/or stem cell expert's point of view?

The video you posted was made in 2009 but Dr. Gho has still not revealed any information on improvements or developments in the HST procedure, 3-4 years later. Is this "HST 3.0" idea something you worked on alone or have you ever discussed this issue with HASCI/Gho?

Nope – there is nothing to discuss with them, because I think that Dr. Gho is working on it anyhow. Sure, it’s nice to see him himself transforming former bald guys into hairy men (gc83uk etc), but personally I would rather prefer to see him doing this…

…in a more concentrated way again, as he did it in the past.

2 follicles from 1 is revolutionary, but when you start talking about 3, 10, or 100 from 1, that is when you see the real potential of this type of treatment.

As already mentioned, this just depends on someone's point of view - and KNOW-HOW to accomplish this.

[JJJJrS]

Very receptive - because Dr. Gho believes anyhow, that this is realistic.

http://youtu.be/Cc2fAhzVbdU

So as soon as someone in this field comes up with a "2 follicles from 1 follicle" version for the recipient area - Dr. Gho will come up with the same - but donor regeneration still INCLUDED (=3 follicles from 1 follicle)!

Interesting. If I'm interpreting things correctly, this technique could theoretically be applied by FUE or FUT surgeons as well? I am assuming you will be dissecting the hair follicle after it has been extracted? Would trauma to the follicles not be an issue when doing something like that?

The video you posted was made in 2009 but Dr. Gho has still not revealed any information on improvements or developments in the HST procedure, 3-4 years later. Is this "HST 3.0" idea something you worked on alone or have you ever discussed this issue with HASCI/Gho?

Maybe this thread is not the place to ask all these questions, but these ideas excite me the most which is why I have always appreciated your posts and the work of Dr. Gho. Although some posters may not realize this, probably due to all the arguments you've managed to get into to , it's this type of work and vision that drives progress in this industry. 2 follicles from 1 is revolutionary, but when you start talking about 3, 10, or 100 from 1, that is when you see the real potential of this type of treatment.

[clarence]

Right, YOU rambled on this issue sometime earlier - but neither I, nor someone else, because this is NOT the issue.

Sorry I read the post lazily, got excited and... well, now I'm putting more attention into the reading. Must be offputting to clear up nuts and bolts - and I don't mean pointing out the relationships between the nuts and the bolts, but merely separating the nuts from the bolts - to complete nimrods from time to time.

[534623]

You mean like restoring the density in the donor area, including any density which may have been lost in previous HST procedures? I guess I was rambling on this issue sometime earlier...

Right, YOU rambled on this issue sometime earlier - but neither I, nor someone else, because this is NOT the issue.

[clarence]

So as soon as someone in this field comes up with a "2 follicles from 1 follicle" version for the recipient area - Dr. Gho will come up with the same - but donor regeneration still INCLUDED (=3 follicles from 1 follicle)!

You mean like restoring the density in the donor area, including any density which may have been lost in previous HST procedures? I guess I was rambling on this issue sometime earlier...

... or will HST injections into the donor zone itself bring back (some of) the hairs, which originally fail to regenerate in the donor area? Can I theoretically restore density in the donor area using HST in itself (approaching 100% with each procedure), or are those follicles gone forever?

[534623]

"HST 3.0"

You said that you believe it is realistic, but how receptive do you think they will be to your idea?

Very receptive - because Dr. Gho believes anyhow, that this is realistic.

http://youtu.be/Cc2fAhzVbdU

So as soon as someone in this field comes up with a "2 follicles from 1 follicle" version for the recipient area - Dr. Gho will come up with the same - but donor regeneration still INCLUDED (=3 follicles from 1 follicle)!