3rd Procedure with Gho

[koolx]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but if you're a NW1 than you really shouldn't be wasting your time on hairloss forums or even considering any type of procedure. Even with a NW2, which I actually think looks better than a NW1 in most cases, nobody is going to care.

excuse the error.. i meant nw2. and dont accuse ppl of trolling.. doing so, makes you the troll.

nw2 is still a hair condition as much as nw5 is. just cuz youre at an advanced stage of balding doesnt mean others with less advanced shedding dont deserve that same treatment.

[JJJJrS]

i'm a NW1..

I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but if you're a NW1 than you really shouldn't be wasting your time on hairloss forums or even considering any type of procedure. Even with a NW2, which I actually think looks better than a NW1 in most cases, nobody is going to care.

[JJJJrS]

How do we know that Ironman's evidence is legit, and he isn't an industry stooge?

And, legitimacy of Ironman assumed, what does the jury currently say about whether this procedure regenerates donor supply or not?

It's not Iron_Man's evidence. These are photos that anyone can easily analyse for themselves, posted by multiple patients (IM, gc, tobban, Arashi, aim4hair etc.). In fact, I've analysed both IM's and gc's donor on my own, and can confirm that the great majority of extraction points are regenerating hairs after a week. Here is my analysis of Iron_Man's procedure which you're welcome to scrutinize. Up to this point, not a single patient of Gho's has posted any visible scarring in their donor and in all cases the donor looks practically the same as it did before the procedure.

Once gc83uk's analysis is done, I will collect all the evidence of donor regeneration and post it in this and other sections and try to see what people think. So far, it's extremely compelling and very hard to refute. Still, I always welcome collecting as much evidence as possible and will ask Spencer Kobren to document a 50-100 graft procedure if decides to visit Gho like they agreed.

I think we're going to reach a consensus on the donor soon and the attention will shift more to the recipient side of things.

[koolx]

i'm a NW1..

1) is Dr. Gho's HST (stem cell treatment) is any good?

2) does he combine stem cells and an HT procedure?

3) is it worth it?

[maxhair]

How do we know that Ironman's evidence is legit, and he isn't an industry stooge?

And, legitimacy of Ironman assumed, what does the jury currently say about whether this procedure regenerates donor supply or not?

[gc83uk]

Good question - but I don't think they will do this. Perhaps - I don't know.

@gc - did you try this deal?

No, however if they can do the same deal as last time then I will be happy enough. I think I need to book my next procedure before they get booked up, fuk knows what the current waiting list is like!

Iron Man, have you any statistical info on my last HST in terms of regeneration? I sure I remember reading a comment from you on the lines of subsequent procedures may not achieve as a high a rate of regrowth compared to the 1st, I maybe wrong, but it seemed logical at the time!

Also what is the regeneration % from the re-harvested extraction points?

Would you please be able to take a look at my day 8 photo and compare to the green and aqua circles you made on the modified day 3 photo if you haven't already. You are the master of this!

BTW what does the purple circle represent?

[534623]

This is an extreme example. We talk about reasonable compromises. For example, let's say that someone needs three similar procedures, according to the doctor's opinion. They could perform the first at 100%, the second at 90% and the third at 80% of the price. This is the kind of price deal I have in mind.

Good question - but I don't think they will do this. Perhaps - I don't know.

@gc - did you try this deal?

[Vox]

Just for example:
Let’s assume you’re a celebrity with extensive hairloss and you heard about Dr. Gho’s HST technique. You tell Dr. Gho “I’m a celebrity and I would allow you to mention my name, or even photos IF I get the HST procedure for free”.

If I would be Dr. Gho, I would simply say “F… Y..! – go elsewhere!”
Seriously “GO ELSEWHERE!” – that’s what I would say.

This is an extreme example. We talk about reasonable compromises. For example, let's say that someone needs three similar procedures, according to the doctor's opinion. They could perform the first at 100%, the second at 90% and the third at 80% of the price. This is the kind of price deal I have in mind.

Furthermore:
“7. If grafts do not grow, those grafts will be re-done during a subsequent treatment at no extra cost. In the event that no growth has taken place after two transplantations, I will be reimbursed the amount of 50% of the treatment costs that I have paid.”

This is just a part of your "written deal" with your HSI clinic.

Where this comes from? Does it make part of some kind of written guarantee they provide? If yes, then indeed, this also makes part of the deal I talk about.

But how about just showing OBJECTIVE, AND INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE DONOR REGROWTH DOCUMENTATIONS (as I did in the past) – hosted/posted straight on Dr. Gho’s website by HSI patients? The better they are documented (and detailed) – maybe the better the prices for patients with multiple procedures? How about that?

That's a good idea, beneficial for everyone I believe.

[534623]

That's the thing, without more highly documented cases over a longer period of time, we simply don't know.

I have even for this a solution:

Simply choose one of those docs/clinics, who regularly post "their best results" - and you will get the same too...

Sounds logical - is logical.

[Gandolf]

For EURO 21,090 - what can you expect from Dr. Gho?

That's the thing, without more highly documented cases over a longer period of time, we simply don't know.

[534623]

I mean, HT in general is expensive, but comparably, I don't think Gho's are high at all if you compare them to FUE which is more logical than comparing them to STRIP surgery.

Just for example:
Recently, a patient of a "well-known" HT doc in the Benelux states in Europe posted in a hairloss forum the bill he got from his doc for 4170 FUE grafts: EURO 21,090. I have this bill just in front of my nose...

Anyway, he posted the bill insofar, because the patient is pissed:

- besides the loss in general of 4170 grafts in his donor area in general, permanent shock loss in the donor area (let me guess: 4170 grafts all at once has been indeed "shocking" for the donor area?)

- instead of the expected hair growth in the recipient area, permanent redness of the skin (let me guess: permanent neovascularization, resulting from superficial capillary proliferation during the healing process due to insufficient oxygen in the first few days after transplantation - mostly as a result of "dense packing" of 4170 grafts all at once etc)

For EURO 21,090 - what can you expect from Dr. Gho?

[Gandolf]

Sure, HST procedures are expensive – but, are they?
Simply try to compare the rates of “Top docs” in this industry with Dr. Gho’s rates and sometimes – you WILL be surprised.

This is actually true, he's about halfway between most FUT and FUE per graft price of the top doctors, I don't quite understand those who say he is exorbitantly expensive.

I mean, HT in general is expensive, but comparably, I don't think Gho's are high at all if you compare them to FUE which is more logical than comparing them to STRIP surgery.

[534623]

I am also wondering: does hasci offer special deals to make the package more attractive? For example, guys with extensive hair loss are very likely to need more procedures. They could offer them better prices if they pledge (by some kind of contract?) that they will come back to them, as long as regeneration occurs of course.

I don’t think that they will ever offer such patients with multiple procedures “better prices”. Gho’s clinics simply don’t act like traditional hair transplant clinics – there are various reasons involved for not acting in a similar manner…

Just for example:
Let’s assume you’re a celebrity with extensive hairloss and you heard about Dr. Gho’s HST technique. You tell Dr. Gho “I’m a celebrity and I would allow you to mention my name, or even photos IF I get the HST procedure for free”.

If I would be Dr. Gho, I would simply say “F… Y..! – go elsewhere!”
Seriously “GO ELSEWHERE!” – that’s what I would say. I mean, if I would be Dr. Gho, I’m not the one with extensive hairloss – if you guys understand what I mean with that. So simply “go elsewhere”. Period.

Another example:
In many European countries (in future in almost all EU countries, I guess), it’s forbidden, by law, to show online typical BEFORE/AFTER photos, simply with the reason to protect (young) patients to make a “wrong decision”, so that they don’t get influenced for doing cosmetic procedures with associated health risks. Starting from January 1st 2013, in addition, in Austria, for example, it’s already forbidden to pay third parties (advisors etc) commissions for any surgical cosmetic procedures like hair transplants etc.

Sure, HST procedures are expensive – but, are they?
Simply try to compare the rates of “Top docs” in this industry with Dr. Gho’s rates and sometimes – you WILL be surprised.

Furthermore:
“7. If grafts do not grow, those grafts will be re-done during a subsequent treatment at no extra cost. In the event that no growth has taken place after two transplantations, I will be reimbursed the amount of 50% of the treatment costs that I have paid.”

This is just a part of your "written deal" with your HSI clinic. So there is practically almost no risk involved for patients. In fact, in such cases, the risk is in the hands of the Hair Science Institute. That means, the costs of normal HST procedures contain also any risks for the Hair Science Institute, at least, partially. To avoid such risk, as just mentioned them, of course, they try their best to avoid them and that patients simply get what they bought.

In future, there could be indeed a way to get “better prices” – just an idea …

Due to the fact, that with HST procedures, there simply isn’t something “to hide” on one hand, and the HST technique per se IS something completely different, especially the latter needs also something completely different concerning “marketing” – right?

Showing typical before/after photos is, by law, another issue. But how about just showing OBJECTIVE, AND INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE DONOR REGROWTH DOCUMENTATIONS (as I did in the past) – hosted/posted straight on Dr. Gho’s website by HSI patients? The better they are documented (and detailed) – maybe the better the prices for patients with multiple procedures? How about that?

Doing just this, as just suggested,
would have LOTS OF ADVANTAGES not just for the patient, but also for interested third parties like, of course, also hair researchers etc etc. Sure, and finally, also for Dr. Gho himself and for his research work, because it’s difficult for him to observe THOUSANDS of HST patients (such patients simply serve also as "independent clinical trails subjects" etc) with different donor characteristics etc. So, I can only see lots of advantages for all involved parties (besides being a FAIR thing in general) – and practically no disadvantages with that. We will see …

[Vox]

80%+ of the donor hair regrows and to cover a norwood 6 with hair requires about 15,000-20,000 grafts depending on desired density. Currently he can only do about 2,500 grafts per session. So, a little simple math;

2,500 grafts per session with Gho.
15k USD per 2,500 grafts.
1 year between sessions.
From NW6 to NW1/NW0 it would take;

18,000 grafts required / 2,500 = 7 visits, so 7 years.

7 x 15k = $105,000

I think your scenario is the best case or ideal one. For example, at my age (mid 40's) I would not need this kind of hair density. Although I have not counted, I doubt that my donor has more than 50 grafts per cm^2. Covering a bald area of about 200 cm^2 (this is what I have , more or less) with, say, 35 grafts per cm^2 on average requires only 7000 grafts, which could be done in 3-4 years for a fraction of the money. Of course once there, one more procedure could be considered in order to get the density on par with the rest of the head. Also, personally, I am interested in keeping the hair really short (less than 1 cm), so less density should not be a problem. Actually this was one nice side effect of being bald: I got rid of the hairdresser and, hair or not, I am not going back; I will keep my hair, or what remains from it, short in order to be able to take care of it alone.

So, I believe that there are cases that would be happy with much less than what you propose.

I am also wondering: does hasci offer special deals to make the package more attractive? For example, guys with extensive hair loss are very likely to need more procedures. They could offer them better prices if they pledge (by some kind of contract?) that they will come back to them, as long as regeneration occurs of course.

[JJJJrS]

HST needs upgrade or else it will never be taken seriously and you see why,
imagne one day you just walk in hasci and have 5000 grafts, thats gonna be game changr

Any procedure that produces donor regeneration and no visible scarring deserves to be treated very seriously. Of course, I would like to see HASCI perform larger procedures but the two points above are huge. It's not like FUE surgeons are consistently offering anywhere close to 5k grafts/session either.

For those who do get such a procedure with FUE or FUT, what's next afterwards? Your donor is mostly depleted, you have scarring at the back of your head, and if you have or will have an advanced level of hair loss, your results in the recipient will still be thin. Traditional transplants are a dead-end for a lot of people, moreso than HST.

t makes perfect sense as to why fue/fut docs are reluctant to adopt hst,
telling patient he will see final result in 2020 wouldnt be good for business,

I don't think they're reluctant to adopt it because of business. The main reason they don't offer HST is because they don't know how to preform the procedure. HASCI is probably doing better business-wise than the vast majority of clinics so I'm sure these surgeons are aware that the demand is there for HST.

Most of these clinics still aren't comfortable with FUE so a more labor-intensive procedure like HST, might not be so appealing to a FUT mill.

With that said, I'm confident we're going to see major advancements in the field in the near future.