Debunking HASCI´s regeneration claim - an open letter.

[hellouser]

Question!!!

If HASCI typically does about 1,600 grafts per procedure and gives approximately 35 grafts per square centimetre, this means they will cover a total area of 45cm/2;

1600 / 35 = 45

That's a LOT of space that 1,600 grafts can cover, its essentially of about 6.7cm x 6.7cm.

Is my thinking correct? Essentially, for hairline work, this is one of Dr. Gho's examples here with just over 1,300 grafts:

From this:



To this:

[ss1980]

Arashi

Which area of scalp u plan to put these 50 grafts?
I dnt think hasci will accept ur offer but its worthed a try
Hacsi rrmoved 80% plus regeneration from website..honestly id be surprissed if theres 30% regeneration..far cry from 80%+

[caddarik79]

Agreed. I got an email back from Kristel, it says the decision is up to Gho himself and he's on holiday right now, will be back in 3 weeks, so I'll hear it then, which is ok, since I can't go january anyway, soonest probably end feb/begin march.

Did´nt hasci tell you they would provide new éléments to forum members? Any idea what?when?

[Arashi]

If HASCI truly believes in their procedure, there's no reason to shy away from this.

Agreed. I got an email back from Kristel, it says the decision is up to Gho himself and he's on holiday right now, will be back in 3 weeks, so I'll hear it then, which is ok, since I can't go january anyway, soonest probably end feb/begin march.

[JJJJrS]

For example, 2-hair graft extractions:
With this, as just explained, you will end-up with mostly 1-2 hairs regenerating in the extraction wounds, mostly 1 hair (rather rare 2 hairs) in the recipient area.

Point 3) is also a part of "why, for example, Dr. Gho doesn't share the HST technique with other professionals in this field, like Dr. Cole", for instance. Because according to Dr. Gho "the HST technique isn't still there where guys like Dr. Cole would like to see it" (e.g. each and every extracted 2-hair HST graft produces again and almost for 100% 2-hairs again in the donor, as well as almost for 100% 2-hairs in the recipient.

I think this is a fair assessment and one that I've suspected for a while now. Initially, it didn't make sense to me why Dr. Gho was so unwilling to share the technique with any of his colleagues. At first I was willing to give him a break because of the sleazy characters you'll find in the hair transplant industry but at this point, it's clear that HST is still a big work in progress.

Anyway, Ironman, we all want the same thing here man, we all want our hair back and we all want to find out the truth about HASCI. Let's be positive and work towards that common goal here.

I'll keep pressing hasci to do that 50 graft test, I think that's THE way to get to the bottom of this ...

This is what it comes down to for me. Give HASCI all the time in the world for the test, I just want them to prove to everyone that there is hair multiplication occurring. I don't care what that number is, let's just see if it can be proven for the first time. If HASCI truly believes in their procedure, there's no reason to shy away from this.

[Arashi]

Anyway, Ironman, we all want the same thing here man, we all want our hair back and we all want to find out the truth about HASCI. Let's be positive and work towards that common goal here.

I'll keep pressing hasci to do that 50 graft test, I think that's THE way to get to the bottom of this ...

[Arashi]

calling me multiple times “Nazi Schweinhund” especially in the 1st “The Ironman Procedure” thread - among many other nice things you did.

That was not nice of me to do ! And almost got me banned (and rightfully so). But let's not forget you weren't exactly a saint either, no need to quote all the stuff you threw at me. Anyway, we've had all of that, no need to get back into that, the forum is way more strictly moderated now and I like that: less bickering, more focus on discussions.

Yes, I think analyzing your case would be interesting and helpful for everybody. But without taking recipient into account, we'll still be in the dark. I mean, for Gaz I calculated regrowth to be in that 0-38% range. And regardless if you agree on that number, it will always be in a 0-x% range unless we look at recipient too.

That's why I think a 50 graft test is not just the best, but also the only way to really get a good idea about the effectiveness of the procedure.

[534623]

My goal is not 'to debunk hasci'. My goal is to seek the truth.

Oh, really? All of a sudden?

Most guys (including you) could have had all the following information etc a year ago already. But you were too much busy with calling me multiple times “Nazi Schweinhund” especially in the 1st “The Ironman Procedure” thread - among many other nice things you did. But that not enough, you even forced Winston to ban me (almost), what finally makes providing information on these forums not really easy on one hand and, of course, “unwilling to share something at all” on the other hand.

Nevertheless, here are your beloved “mapped photos” from my 1st HST…

…which should provide what you want to find out.

FULL SIZE – Left ear side (section 1):

http://s14.directupload.net/images/131222/54tg8fej.jpg

FULL SIZE – Occiput (section 2):

http://s1.directupload.net/images/131222/45e54p7d.jpg

FULL SIZE – Right ear side (section 3):

http://s1.directupload.net/images/131222/ke2echh3.jpg

As you will see, the photos are sectioned already with light blue lines. So all you (or any other guy) have to do is simply making a counting (e.g. make tiny dots into every hole etc) of each and every extraction site/hole within every section: section 1 left ear side / section 2 occiput / section 3 right ear side.

You can see practically each and every extraction site in these zoomable FULL SIZE photos (see URL’s/links above). And yeah, the point is finally, to get an accurate number about the failed extractions they had, at least, in my case to get finally my 1400 HST grafts from my 1st HST.

@JJJJrS – are you (still) there?

I did an analysis for IM's procedure last year. Unfortunately, FileDen is gone now so the pictures are no longer online.

Without taking into account transections or failed extractions, around 70% of the extraction points regrew hair. He seemed to support my findings. Of course, the actual "regeneration rate" will be much lower in practice.

You can read more about it here.

If that were the case, those would be incredible results, especially combined with the scarless aspect.

Any net gain of hair is enormous. You can always work on the technical issues to improve consistency.

I think it's frustrating though, that we still have no concrete answers and HASCI still behaves so secretive about their procedure, even to the same patients that invested a lot, both financially and emotionally, to get a procedure done.

I hope you stored your IM analysis on your pc, because fileden, as you know, is gone.
IF you’re still interested about the ACCURATE regeneration rate and also about what exactly regenerated…

Analysis area shaved 1 year later:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/131222/2ruum6tf.jpg

http://s1.directupload.net/images/131222/fkanri2b.jpg

…feel free to find it out!

Simply choose the other photo (Day-2 after 2nd HST) as comparison; in case you have any doubts (“Is it a 1-hair or 2-hair graft?”) about some regenerated extraction sites. If you still have any troubles with some extraction sites, please let me know! I have lots of other close-up photos from this area (Day-0 photos), to find accurate answers finally.

Anyways, thereafter we would have at least 2 very very well and detailed analyzed reports of at least 2 similar (Caucasian) HST cases (gc + IM …which “work under 1 hat” lol) and, yeah, hopefully a better understanding about the “net gain” (hair multiplication) from all these procedures.

[534623]

Under the skin

Sure, your assumption is also absolutely legit. That means, a remaining part of the follicle and it's visible hair shaft, can also remain (undetected) deep in the skin within extraction wounds, sure.

But all that depends on what has been the REAL intention of the extraction(s) and I already tried to explain this issue:

http://67.227.210.96/showpost.php?p=110193&postcount=6

INTENTIONS

1) Extraction of complete and intact follicular units, but with accidental transections of 1 or more follicles within a follicular unit?

2) Intentionally splitting of strange growing follicular units ...

http://s7.postimg.org/533rf6hez/Kind_Of_Graft.jpg

... (e.g in a row, rather than a very close bundle of hair shafts at the skin's surface to grasp easier all hair shaft bearing follicles all at once) ...

3) Intentionally splitting of grafts (e.g. 2-hair and/or 3-hair grafts) in such a way, so that all distal parts of the hair shaft bearing follicles can be removed/extracted (no visible hair shafts anymore within or near the small extraction wounds), but at least 1 proximal part (which includes the follicle's bulb) is left behind in the donor area, what finally in most cases (depending on the level of transection) will regenerate a hair shaft bearing follicle again within such a extraction wound.

Concerning the HST technique:

2) is practically "standard" for them, especially with patients with strange follicular unit configurations;
3) happens simply accidentally due to different patients skin textures, even in the very same patient. Up to around 70% (in worst case scenarious even worser) of such unintentional failed extractions of all extractions are, unfortunately, not really rare with the HST technique.
For example, 2-hair graft extractions:
With this, as just explained, you will end-up with mostly 1-2 hairs regenerating in the extraction wounds, mostly 1 hair (rather rare 2 hairs) in the recipient area.

Point 3) is also a part of "why, for example, Dr. Gho doesn't share the HST technique with other professionals in this field, like Dr. Cole", for instance. Because according to Dr. Gho "the HST technique isn't still there where guys like Dr. Cole would like to see it" (e.g. each and every extracted 2-hair HST graft produces again and almost for 100% 2-hairs again in the donor, as well as almost for 100% 2-hairs in the recipient.

Quote Dr. Cole:

“The main problem from follicular unit extraction remains the removal of a follicular unit from the natural follicular geometry of the donor area.”

... and this counts even more for the HST technique. FUE extractions, in comparison to HST extractions, are very easy to perform.

[Ted]

Really? That's what "hasci will try to do"?

Come on...

Under the skin

[Arashi]

arashi u were offering 10k for someone to go test nigam i think,

No, that was a bet that his doubling procedure at that time, couldn't bring back a NW7 to a NW2. Still waiting for my money

you should just ask hasci to do a test procedure for the price that would be justifiable for that size of procedure. If they will not want, i think it would be a red flag.

If they don't want to do it for 1000 eur, then that says it all. I understand that per graft such a small session is a lot more expensive than a big session, because of the overhead, 1000 should more than make up for that.

[534623]

So then why do they give most patients a limit of three HST procedures if the donor is limitless?

Man, seriously, what part of the left column’s headline…

“The ideal hair transplantation SHOULD fulfil the following objectives:”

… don’t you understand?

All the mentioned objectives in the paper’s snippet just explain thoughts/objectives, IN GENERAL, modern hair transplants should fulfil – and not about whether or not the HST technique is completely able to fulfil these objectives – now, or in future.

You can also take all the mentioned thoughts/objectives simply as aim in general, how modern hair transplants SHOULD work IN FUTURE – if possible...

Concerning your boring “why do they give most patients a limit of three HST procedures” comments:

How many different explanations do you need …

I've gotten an answer from Kristel too, regarding my question about the max 3 HST's. She explained it like this: They advise to do 3 HST's. After this, density in donor might visibly drop, hence they evaluate the donor at this point and make a plan from thereon.

So it seems they're saying that you generally can get 3 HST's without any visible density loss in donor and after that, results really vary from patient to patient and they have to evaluate at that point.

nothing new here... i think they evaluate each case separately just like they evaluate the number of grafts each can get in one session.
When i did my HST i was clearly told that they will inform me once the donor visibly start getting thinner, and then it's up to me if i want to continue or not.
one of the main selling point for HST beside regeneration is being scarless, and they guarantee that your donor will look untouched after HST. now when they feel your donor will start looking visibly thinner or there is a chance to develop some scars, they will tell you and it's up to you whether you wanna continue or not.

… until you get it?

Anyway - You are welcome!

[hellouser]

Have you ever tried yourself to find an accurate answer for your observation?

Dr. Gho and the whole HSCI staff has the concrete answers already - at least concerning the "clinical relevance" of the HST technique ...


...or do you think they study the CLINICAL RELEVANCE of the HST technique with around 100 - 200 patients just for fun and will publish the whole outcome including each and every detail simply on hairloss forums?
If they would do the latter, practically every serious medical journal wouldn't publish their study anymore, because doing so, would interfere with the common publication politics.

All I can tell you guys, when you look at the column on the left side in the study snippet above, I guess almost every HST patient will admit, ALL mentioned objectives are fully justified - besides PARTIALLY point 3).

And especially concerning point 3), I think smart guys already know the accurate answer too - no?

So then why do they give most patients a limit of three HST procedures if the donor is limitless?

[cocacola]

arashi u were offering 10k for someone to go test nigam i think, you should just ask hasci to do a test procedure for the price that would be justifiable for that size of procedure. If they will not want, i think it would be a red flag.

[Arashi]

What?

You intend to spend just 1000 Euros to debunk the famous Dutch physician Dr. Coen Gho??

My goal is not 'to debunk hasci'. My goal is to seek the truth. As I calculated in gaz's results, there's still an 38% room for regrowth. If that number would be true, I'd book my next procedure asap. If regrowth doesnt happen at all (which is equally possible in my opinion), I'll hold it off as long as possible, till hopefully something better comes along.