The 50 Graft Test Procedure

[Arashi]

I'd personally suggest to go with 100 grafts. Still very manageable and statistically much more significant.

[JJJJrS]

If anyone else has any additional suggestions, please feel free to add any.

Eventually Arashi can pass along the instructions. I think the ones I wrote above are clear enough and if HASCI follows them, the test will turn out very well.

[JJJJrS]

Requirements for test:

- 50 grafts should be extracted from a small area (~3-5 cm^2) in the donor. These extracted grafts should include 1-hair, 2-hair, and 3-hair follicular units. At a minimum, five 3-hair units should be extracted, preferably more if possible.

- These 50 grafts should be implanted into a slick bald area, ~2 cm^2 in size. It is important to choose as slick bald of an area as possible to minimize any confusion between implanted and preexisting hairs.

- Both areas must be kept small to simplify the analysis and photo-taking process.

- High quality, zoomed-in photographs must be taken. It is important that these photos are clear enough that the characteristics of the individual hair units are evident (i.e., it is clear how many hairs are in each follicular unit). In other words the process of counting the hairs should be relatively easy. The more clear the photos are, the less that is left to interpretation. This is paramount for the procedure. For examples of good photos please refer to gc83uk or Iron_Man.

- While it is not absolutely necessary to mark the monitored donor and recipient areas, if it's possible, it would be preferred if these areas were marked with non-permanent tattoos. For example, maybe two or four small dots defining the boundaries can be marked.

- The following photos must be taken:
Monitored donor and recipient:
- Before the procedure
- Immediately after the procedure
- 2 days after the procedure
- 2 weeks after the procedure
- 1 month after the procedure
- 6 months after the procedure
- 12 months after the procedure

If possible, more photos can be taken (1 week, 3 months, 5 months etc.) but at a minimum, we should see the photos listed above. The patient must be willing to shave these small monitored areas each time the photos are taken.

A picture of the petri-dish immediately after the extractions must also be taken. In addition, a picture of the entire donor and recipient should be taken immediately after the procedure to confirm that no additional grafts were extracted or implanted.

[FearTheLoss]

**** yeah HASCI!

[JJJJrS]

Can there be an effort to get someone who's a competent photographer to take the pictures?

That's the key thing, the photographs. They have to be clear enough that we can characterize the individual hair units.

As long as they take good pictures and follow the simple instructions we'll come up with, everything should be ok.

[JJJJrS]

Ok, let's get this logically. Judging by JJJRs and Ironman's research, at what point in time can we expect 95% of regrowth ? If I remember correctly that happens within 20 days ?

The donor will be mostly regenerated after 14 days.

If we visit this guy at day 3 (don't even need to witness surgery), make highres photo's, maybe even have an independent forum member like that Dutch website manager, visit too, then we can check no 'funny stuff' went on during surgery. We can verify no grafts were taken elsewhere.

Now let's assume they would do what you're afraid of: insert new grafts into the donor (and maybe recipient too), then how many days would this be visible ? I think at least 6 days: recipient stays crusty for at least 6 days and the 'donor' would become recipient too (of the new grafts). So we'd need to check up at :

3 days
9 days
15 days

and have hasci publish photo's at 21 days. Correct ?

This has the advantage that we have a way of making sure good photo's will be made and there's no way to cheat. Agreed ?

As long as he takes pictures of his entire donor and the monitored recipient area every few days, I think we should be fine. That way, we can view the monitored donor area with respect to the rest of his scalp. We'll also be able to tell if any new hairs have been implanted just by monitoring and mapping the recipient.

If someone is willing to check up on him, that would be even better.

[hellouser]

Can there be an effort to get someone who's a competent photographer to take the pictures?

[JJJJrS]

Ok guys, I have awesome news. HASCI is going to re-do the test !! Details to follow, but they understood why the previous test failed and will take great care to make sure we won't need a 3rd one

From what I understand, it will be going down next wednesday already !

Great news! Thanks again Arashi.

The most important thing, like you said, is that the test is conducted properly. That means great before and after photos, a picture of the petri, and limiting the scope of the procedure (~50 grafts, small areas in the donor and recipient).

If this is done right, it will be the final proof we are asking for. I'll try to be as detailed and clear as I possibly can be about the requirements and maybe you can pass them along. If the requirements are followed, it will be very hard to manipulate anything.

Actually ... I'm still thinking, maybe it isn't even a bad idea if I go there myself. I know where I can lend a professional camera with macro lense. I could shoot tons of photo's and as long as the client scalp is shaved (so he has no places to hide grafts, like Dr Nigams guy had) and as long as I meet up with him 2 days after and again shoot tons of photo's, then that should also be enough proof ...

If you would like to go there and periodically check-up with the test candidate, that would be great. If someone else is interested, that would be ok also.

[Arashi]

Ok, I've sent her an email, asking if it was possible to meet this guy 2-3 days after surgery and then a few times more after. I almost feel bad asking her, she's a qualified doctor, has a sworn oath and is not some Dr Nigams who had photoshopped pictures on his website.

But then again, I think it's in everybody's best interest to do this test as careful as possible, I hope she'll understand.

[Arashi]

Just got a mail back from Kristel. She said this guy is not on the forums and wants to stay out. She said that if necessary, somebody could witness surgery. Also a VERY valid point is that she said that she as a doctor has taken a sworn oath which they take very seriously. I'm not sure how that works in India, but in the Netherlands this is a big thing.

So, not sure how this client of theirs would feel about meeting up a few days later ... I can ask them about that.

[Arashi]

Ok, let's get this logically. Judging by JJJRs and Ironman's research, at what point in time can we expect 95% of regrowth ? If I remember correctly that happens within 20 days ?

If we visit this guy at day 3 (don't even need to witness surgery), make highres photo's, maybe even have an independent forum member like that Dutch website manager, visit too, then we can check no 'funny stuff' went on during surgery. We can verify no grafts were taken elsewhere.

Now let's assume they would do what you're afraid of: insert new grafts into the donor (and maybe recipient too), then how many days would this be visible ? I think at least 6 days: recipient stays crusty for at least 6 days and the 'donor' would become recipient too (of the new grafts). So we'd need to check up at :

3 days
9 days
15 days

and have hasci publish photo's at 21 days. Correct ?

This has the advantage that we have a way of making sure good photo's will be made and there's no way to cheat. Agreed ?

[Arashi]

However Didi, I agree that the best way is always to have a forum member patient. It makes it a lot easier for everybody and for me too. With a forum member we know, nobody need to take photo's (other than himself), nobody needs to visit the clinic during surgery, nobody needs to meet up with him after a few days. But can (you) find somebody ?

Also the problem is of course, that this guy might not be a good photographer at all and that he just doesn't feel at all to make photo's ...

[Arashi]

If you can get someone you trust to meet up with this patient, at the clinic, at day 3 and maybe at day 7, then I'll ask HASCI for permission but I'm pretty sure they're ok with it. Deal ?

[Arashi]

the best way to avoid this is to have our man, forum member

its better to wait a few weeks more and have our man than perform da test on a guy hasci picked


What does dutch forum moderator think, maybe he can help us find the proper guy to go and he can supervise?

I don't know what he thinks, why don't you find out ? You see Didi, we're now getting a test that I'm satisfied with. If you're not, then why don't you help out ? Why don't you contact that moderator, ask if he wants to visit the clinic too ? Maybe he could also meet up at 3 and 7 days ? I'd be happy to join in too.

You see, if you're not happy with the test, then YOU should do something about it and stop relying on others.

[didi]

the best way to avoid this is to have our man, forum member

its better to wait a few weeks more and have our man than perform da test on a guy hasci picked


What does dutch forum moderator think, maybe he can help us find the proper guy to go and he can supervise?