To be honest I don't know what ingredients they can also mix in. I could ask them but I don't want too bother them too often, so I think the best is if we collect our ideas what could be in and how to mix it with what for producing sth, and then I will ask them in one rush. (I guess sth like a cream/topiclal solution would be the best.)
They emailed me that they can produce every Oleuropein concentration we want. Would be nice if more people would think about the ideas and try to help figuring out a plan.
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topicals, permeation, active metabolites
A couple of days ago I was reading up on minoxidil and it's mechanism of work. I read that minoxidil sulfate is the active metabolite that actually promotes hair growth. Minoxidil sulfate is made by the sulfotransferase enzyme. It is common knowledge that minoxidil doesn't work for everybody, possibly because we have different sulfotransferase enzyme activity. So I read up on it just out of curiosity and (if I understand it correctly) the sulfotransferase enzyme is really picky for pH changes (it is most active in 6,5pH) and temperature changes (it is most active in 30-35'C and rapidly loses its effectiveness in increasing temperature)
So I am wondering: Is it important to have a right pH balance for minoxidil and other treatments to work, or to work better? Is temperature important? I was always applying minoxidil after a hot shower to increase permeation but is it possible that at the same time I was inactivating the sulfotransferase enzyme? I don't know but from now on I will only wash my head with cold water
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Hi Chemical I am willing to try this out.
I found a tincture in my local shop that has 65% olea europea (with water and alcohol but not sure of the exact ratio yet) and I also found 500 mg capsules of green tea which contain 15% ECGC. I intend to mix them by adding a bit more alcohol and water i n a seperate bottle.
What ratio would you use?
I'll take some pics and we'll see what happens. Have to be honest I don't expect much but I have nothing to lose so...Leave a comment:
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Chemical, do you think it is ok if I mix EGCG with oleuropein; same ethanol mixture?
And it would be really great to hear your opinion on this:
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We have our first participant!
@Keeper
You've convinced me. They seem to be genuine, and they're offering their help free of charge, this'll benefit alot of users. And we'll have a consistent formula. Lets make this thing happen.
Can they create formulations with ingredients besides oleuropein? Like EGCG.
Agreed. But it helps with the irritation I get from minox. I think we should think about other potential vehicles that might make applying the formula easier. Emu oil isnt ideal as a vehicle.
Which brand did you buy? Seeing as you've already taken the plunge to go with minox, do you think you could try topical EGCG too? It should achieve near 90% suppression of AR when stacked with minox. The oleuropein would have a better chance of working too. Keep us posted.Leave a comment:
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I bought the liquid olive extract off amazon.co.uk and mixed 9ml (300mg oleuropein) into 60ml minox. I shall report back if I see any benefit - although I'm not too hopeful as minox by itself has only grown vellus hairs. I'm also currently on .25mg fin and OC.Leave a comment:
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Seriously guys....stop talking emu oil ! Emu oil is totally shitty for hair ! If you want good vehicles, there is true vehicles, Like a mix of Polysorbate 80 / DMI / eth for liquide, and if you want a cream based, you have to look for a liposomal cream vehicle !
Stop dreaming about emu oil ! Is totaly shit, and greasy...Leave a comment:
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Hey Chemical, glad you like the idea. Just some thoughts of me. I talked to a nice woman, she didn't seem to be greedy. She said its a funny idea we have and she likes it. She was also talking about mixing oleuropein and emu oil and so on. They are not a big pharma company (she was talking about that oleuropein is shown to be effective for so reducing so many issues in health and they have evidence about it but its sad, that the "school medicine says: take this and this medicament". And even if they take advantage of our survey. Why not ? IT can not be mich more expensive than now. They already have a lot of different combinations of ingredients. It won't change too much I guess. And even if it works, they will be really quick really much competition and since you can not really have a patent about oleuropein and emu oil they is not much greedy possibilities in it. I think they just like that people understand that oleuropein can have many positive effects and that we dedicated to our ideas. It also didn't sound like it must be a super strict survey. They would send us free samples of what we need. They can also produce cremes out of the extract and so on. Wit emu oil or propylene glycol or ethanol or what ever.
We should just make sure to optimize the formula in the way you (are we all together) think it makes sense to have a good effect, reading as much studies as possible. Maybe even some variations of the forumlas. Of course they want some photos or so to know whats going on. I think its a fair trade and they are really helping. (They also know a lot about stuff like emu oil, that it is important where it comes from and so on. I think they tested a lot of it with there chemists...and so on). I m not too much in all the studies. Its not the easiest to translate or the studies but as soon as my exams are over I also want to read about it more. I m already happy, that somebody is endeavored to do sth like you Chemical. What I can do at the moment is too support this idea. I think you should think about the formula and probably discuss it with really experiences members here. And brainstorming all together we have at least a minimal chance to achieve sth
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I wouldnt mix them unless you know what you're doing. Theres only one study on ginkgo's effects on hair: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8254481
Its not too reassuring imo.
My current protocol is:
1/5 of a oleuropein cap dissolved in 30ml minox. (1mg/ml) ~0.5mg absorption per the molecular mass.
I use this minox solution in the morning, 0.5ml. Then once its dried, I use emu oil (just emu oil). Helps rehydrate the skin after the ethanol dries up. If I feel like it I'll use miconazole 2%.
At night, same thing, but I use the emu oil with the oleuropein and minox mixed in.
The stubble hairs that I noticed a week ago are actually getting longer, i tried to take some pictures but my stupid camera over exposures the pictures so you cant see jack. I'll have to invest in a camera or wait for the area to fill in properly so I can see the difference in the before and after pics. Right now I'm 80% sure the oleuropein is augmenting the minox. I never saw this many vellus to anagen transition this quickly. The region where I concentrate the treatments is actually turning grey, the same colour as when you shave facial hair to the skin. Frontal shedding has completely stopped. I cannot explain how excited I am about, but I'm trying to stay skeptical and critical because this is not just about me. Theres alot of people out there sufferring from this stupid condition, its wrecks havoc on a persons self esteem - I know first hand.
The task now is to find something that will keep hair. I've ordered some EGCG:
The highest potency I could find. I'll be mixing a cap with minox, I'll get it when I go back to work on Jan 4. Theoretically EGCG should increase the rate of hair regrowth and shaft elongation by inhibiting AR protein, downregulating it, and preventing the paracrine action of TGF-beta (which causes nearby follicles to stop proliferating).
Its a marker of oxidative stress, so a reduction doesnt really tell us much, especially since its measured via urine. Prostaglandins can promote hair growth when overpresssed/stimulated, but theyre not the main factors that actually control hair growth in people who arent affected by AGA. Its the WNTs.
I'm doing some research on WNT3a which is known to stimulate hair growth, so if we can find an agonist, it'll be deadly in combination with oleuropein.
I think this is an excellent idea! Great stuff Keeper! The only issue I have is, when involving commercial companies I fear they will let their greed take over. IF it works on a preliminary group of people, this'll become a market. I don't like the idea of people paying companies for something they can make themselves, or companies trying to make money off something that should be non-profit. On the other hand this will allow people to actually test this to see if it works on the general population, before investing in overseas shipping and whatnot. We need to verify their ingredients and where they're sourcing the extracts. I like this idea, We'll have to talk more about this.
I've made some changes to my own formulation, so emu oil isnt actually necessary. Its only good for keeping irritation/inflammation at bay when using propylene glycol and ethanol. A pure formulation of ethanol + propylene glycol (some people are sensitive to this) + oleuropein, 3mg/ml max would be the ideal formulation. If people want to see a trial then I will have to insist that people wait a few more weeks while I test the EGCG or discover anything else that might help or warrant modifications. It would be nice to run a full blown study with controls but oleuropein is not a cure and it requires additional treatments like (minox, keto/mico, AR suppressors) to fully maximise its benefits. I've been concentrating the treatment only on side, and I can definitely see the difference. The right side hasnt improved as much as the left. Perhaps this would be better than having controls on placebo, the local untreated skin can act as the control which should give a better indication on its efficacy since everyones got different feedback loops and environments working against hair follicles.
The studies that I've read showed that it takes sustained dosing for 2 weeks straights to see any change in WNT10b expression, my own observation isnt valid because I was inconsistent but I guess 30 days is sufficient to see any change. The dose is also another concern because I'm pretty sure its got a biphasic effect i.e too much and it wont work as good, plus its got around 70% absorption rate through skin due to it 540 molecular weight. Having a fixed dose for everyone may or may not be optimal, theres just too many variables at play.Leave a comment:
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They should do preclinical trial with ~60 ppl on their own, with professional tools, documentation and so on.
Oleuropein, Minoxidil and placebo would be the best.
I probably couldnt participate even remotely becouse I dont want to drop my current regimen.Leave a comment:
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I know its not that easy.
But would be nice if we could all cooperate together and figure out a plan and also with the help of experienced members about how to design a survey based on this.Leave a comment:
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Hey Chemical!
I like your way of approaching things !
So i decide to support you a little bit and to talk to a huge german company which is specialized in production of oleuropein extract (for around 20 years) in all possible concentrations and also Emu Oil.
After some conversation they said: if we can show them a summary of your theory that makes kind of sense and we have a plan how to conduct a study they would probably produce a liquid in a concentration we want (also with emu oil or what else is necessary) and send free samples to us to try it for an amount of time (probably 50-100 people). Of course we would have to make pictures and give protocols about our experience and so on but I think this should stop us. She said to start it before christmas would be unrealistic, but very soon in the new year!!!!
Sounds not that bad or?Leave a comment:
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