Updated Research and Knowledge - Cutting Edge

[scooterboy]

Is 10mg of the minox and oleuropein solution mixed with 25ml of emu used for just one application ?

[jamesst11]

Chemical, I don't know if you've covered this already, but what are your opinions on Spiro (s-5 cream) applied topically to the balding scalp?

[Chemical]

Awesome work ! Thanks a lot !
So you think oleuropein is better than minox ?
We definitively have to make a trial for this ! I need regrowth
i'm looking for buying a the right Vitamine C Form in order to inhibe dkk1 too

Minox is definitely an effective agent for stimulating hair growth, and there are indications that it might turn off Androgen Receptor signalling (although I'm not fully convinced). The only concern I have with minox is the effect it has on 17BetaHSD, if you look at the diagram below you see it will work against mico/keto. Oleuropein works differently, it inhibits DKK1 and increases other growth factors that greatly improve hair growth.It comes down to personal preference at the moment.

ok thanks for that chemical just wanted to make sure that was ok to use, ive droped minox due to side effects so im just going to use that Oleuropein mixture with Adenosine and my CB mixed into neogenic with nizoral 3 times a week ive taken base photos so ill give this go

Why are you guys using neogenic? I've not seen any documentation of how stemoxydine supposedly works. I would much rather people try treatments which have some form of documented mechanism.

If you're going to be buying from amazon uk you might as well get ketoconazole (and mico if you want) in cream form

Daktarin Ketoconazole Cream 2%
Daktarin miconazole Cream 2%

This will help suppress the effects of 3Beta diol as shown below. The shampoo can be quite irritating I find, if you use anymore than twice a day.

Chemical, first of all thank you for your effort, really appreciate it.

As it concerns tretinoin there are many studies that support its use in hair growth. Would not women using it for years report healthier skin and less hair, and it would be all the rave? If we are talking keratin...

I've actually used tretinoin and it does wonders for skin. It works by causing an initial increase in keratinocyte turnover then gradually reducing proliferation over time. It also increases collagen which makes your skin look good. Women generally use it on their face, most women dont have any visible facial hair so I dont think they'd be able to tell if it was decreasing hair growth. Yes some studies have shown that certain doses increase hair growth, but this is due to initial increase in proliferation I was just talking about. Even if you use a tiny amount you still wont achieve 1nm tissue concentration, and in a few weeks your hair will stop growing as the therapeutic effects of tretinoin kick in. I used tretinoin 0.5% on my hairline with emu oil and I couldnt tell if it was working, but I saw the emu oil by itself did make a difference after a few weeks.

Hi everyone . This is my first post here .
I have two questions for ChemicaL about mixing emu with minox and oleuropein . I am no sure how you or using emu with minox and oleuropein . In post 10 you say to add 5 750 mg oleuropein capsules and mix them in a bottle of minoxidil.
Then use the dropper to mix around 10ml of minox and oleuropein with 25ml of emu oil . is this right or am I misunderstanding your instructions ? I am not sure how much emu to mix .

One more question . Instead ov emu oil can I put some DMSO in the bottle ? It works great for penetrating in to the scalp .

Good question. Each cap contains 20% standardized oleuropein, which means 150mg per capsule.

Swanson Super Strength Olive Leaf Extract is standardised to 20% oleuropein concentration to deliver an impressive 150 mg oleuropein per capsule.

The minox solution had 750mg of oleuropein in 60ml. Thats 12.5mg per ml. Granted that most of the oleuropein didnt dissolve I'd say 10mg per ml.

10ml of this solution yields 100mg. Combined with 25ml of Emu oil, thats 100mg/35ml = 2.8mg per ml. The study used a maximum of 3mg.

This time I used 2 caps in 30ml of minox. Nearly all the oleuropein was dissolved. 300mg / 30ml = 10mg per ml. I used around 60ml of Emu oil this time = 300mg/90ml = 3mg/ml. I started off on this last time but kept adding more oleuropein (i cap every week) which wasnt consistent. I typically use 1ml per application and I'm going to stick to this dose just too see how a lower dose works. I suggest everyone else do the same because you can always increase the concentration of oleuropein gradually. There shouldnt be a plateau since the more time your follicles have active WNT signalling the greater the chance they'll fully regrow, with increased thickness.

Ok so, what's the equivalent of the Olive Leaf Extract Liquid Ethanolic Tincture 100ml Concentrate (3.5 oz) (contains approx. 9X more Oleuropein than popular Glycerine extracts per ml & 2-5X more Oleuropein than 1:2 and 1:5 ethanolic tinctures) > > > in the USA Amazon site???
[BAs all I'm seeing is this..[/B]http://www.amazon.com/Olive-europaea...ml+Concentrate

You're better off making your own solution because you'll have to have the liquid shipped from UK. You should be okay with this vehicle if you dont want to use minox: 50% v/v ethanol (50% water + 50% ethanol), 20% propylene glycol, and 30% water.

Dissolved one cap of olive leaf extract (25% oleuropein) into neogenic

Can you link me to this product? I'd like to see what's inside. Not sure if it'll be an appropriate vehicle atm.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00B2U9MW4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailp age_o00_s00[/url][/B]
[/B] Thanks chemical..so this I can use on its own without mixing

I'd recommend mixing with emu oil. But you can use itself.

Heres a digram I've made to help everyone understand the pathways that contribute to hairloss and how the treatments work:

[Eire1980]

I read that study before but I missed some of the discussion they went over. Turns out WNT10b and possibly other WNTs have the ability to signal to the mesenchyme via the DPC to increase the progenitor pool + promote differentiation towards keratinocytes. In other words, Oleuropein can stimulate the stem cells to start proliferating so that the DPC have enough cells to grow hair. Without these stem cells the DPC will not be able to build the follicles. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, excellent stuff InBeforeTheCure.



Yes! I've just come to realise that minox stimulates a 40% increase in 17BHD.



I've shown before that the 17BHD, 3BetaHSD family facilitate the conversion of DHT to 3Beta Diol which negatively affects hair growth. And although miconazole/keto reduce those proteins, this increase from minoxidil might just negate the positive effects of mico/keto. I'm not sure if the Adenosine receptor activation (how minoxidil actually increases VEGF and grows hair) is worth the increase in ER beta activation. I'm going to think about this a bit more. But if you want to avoid minox, then you should definitely try the ethanolic solution or even make your own. You MUST dissolve the oleuropein.



Not too sure about this brand. If you're buying from amazon uk then I'd suggest the one joshuk linked below, that ones got numbers and its an ethanolic mixture which is perfect as is. I will advise you to get yourself some emu oil as that will help with application rather than tretinoin. Yes, tretinoin can increase skin permeability, but its a keratinocyte proliferation stabilizer - good for acne, but hair rely on the proliferation of kerainocytes. There are studies which demonstrate the negative effect of the tretinoid receptors on hair follicles, I'll have to dig them up. Here a study that shows even small amount of tretinoin with minoxidil produced sub par results in comparison to minox alone.





I'd recommend this link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o00_s00

Courtesy of joshuk.

In simple terms:

DHT increases DKK1
DKK1 inhibits hair growth
Oleuropein inhibits DKK1, thus allowing your hair to growth

DHT also increases 3BetaDiol
3BetaDiol activates ER Beta
ER Beta cuts off the blood supply to your hair follicles
Ketoconazole and miconazole prevent DHT from increasing 3BetaDiol

Hair grows faster with WNT10b
Oleuropein increases WNT10b

I'm going to make a diagram to make it easier to visualise. I really want people to understand the science because I dont want people blindly trying whatever they see on the internet. Knowledge is power, if you do not understand, do not make reckless decisions. Ask first, I will try to clarify, and only then should you make informed decisions.



Thank you Josh! That brand is perfect. CB should definitely help and I want to see how oleuropein augments AR antagonists. Keep us posted.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00B2U9MW4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailp age_o00_s00[/url][/B]
[/B] Thanks chemical..so this I can use on its own without mixing

[TubZy]

Dissolved one cap of olive leaf extract (25% oleuropein) into neogenic

[HMDWN]

Ok so, what's the equivalent of the Olive Leaf Extract Liquid Ethanolic Tincture 100ml Concentrate (3.5 oz) (contains approx. 9X more Oleuropein than popular Glycerine extracts per ml & 2-5X more Oleuropein than 1:2 and 1:5 ethanolic tinctures) > > > in the USA Amazon site???
As all I'm seeing is this...http://www.amazon.com/Olive-europaea...ml+Concentrate

[scooterboy]

Hi everyone . This is my first post here .
I have two questions for ChemicaL about mixing emu with minox and oleuropein . I am no sure how you or using emu with minox and oleuropein . In post 10 you say to add 5 750 mg oleuropein capsules and mix them in a bottle of minoxidil.
Then use the dropper to mix around 10ml of minox and oleuropein with 25ml of emu oil . is this right or am I misunderstanding your instructions ? I am not sure how much emu to mix .

One more question . Instead ov emu oil can I put some DMSO in the bottle ? It works great for penetrating in to the scalp .

[SriHanuman]

Chemical, first of all thank you for your effort, really appreciate it.

As it concerns tretinoin there are many studies that support its use in hair growth. Would not women using it for years report healthier skin and less hair, and it would be all the rave? If we are talking keratin...

[joshuk]

ok thanks for that chemical just wanted to make sure that was ok to use, ive droped minox due to side effects so im just going to use that Oleuropein mixture with Adenosine and my CB mixed into neogenic with nizoral 3 times a week ive taken base photos so ill give this go

[Seuxin]

Awesome work ! Thanks a lot !
So you think oleuropein is better than minox ?
We definitively have to make a trial for this ! I need regrowth
i'm looking for buying a the right Vitamine C Form in order to inhibe dkk1 too

[Chemical]

This may interest you.

Link to paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4383245/

I read that study before but I missed some of the discussion they went over. Turns out WNT10b and possibly other WNTs have the ability to signal to the mesenchyme via the DPC to increase the progenitor pool + promote differentiation towards keratinocytes. In other words, Oleuropein can stimulate the stem cells to start proliferating so that the DPC have enough cells to grow hair. Without these stem cells the DPC will not be able to build the follicles. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, excellent stuff InBeforeTheCure.

Thanks for the response,
Would it do any good without minox? minox (and I know there are doubters, gave me puffy eyes and reduced collagen). I wouldn't lie about it and nor would others. I didn't know it was a symptom I just thought it was lack of sleep but the bags got darker and my skin got thinner the longer the weeks went on.

Yes! I've just come to realise that minox stimulates a 40% increase in 17BHD.

Minoxidil increases 17 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase and 5 alpha-reductase activity of cultured human dermal papilla cells from balding scalp.
Abstract
Minoxidil is known to induce hair growth in male pattern baldness, for which development androgen plays a central role. We studied the effect of minoxidil on testosterone metabolism by cultured dermal papilla cells from balding or nonbalding scalp and dermal fibroblasts. In all three groups, 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity was much higher than 5alpha-reductase activity. Minoxidil increased 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity by nearly 40% (P < 0.001) in dermal papilla cells of balding scalp, whereas the effect was less marked in dermal papilla cells from nonbalding scalp and dermal fibroblasts. 5alpha-Reductase activity was also slightly increased by minoxidil in dermal papilla cells from balding scalp. Again, the effect on 5alpha-reductase activity was insignificant in the other two groups of cells. Whether such modification of testosterone metabolism in dermal papilla cells of balding scalp by minoxidil is related to its therapeutic effect remains unknown.

I've shown before that the 17BHD, 3BetaHSD family facilitate the conversion of DHT to 3Beta Diol which negatively affects hair growth. And although miconazole/keto reduce those proteins, this increase from minoxidil might just negate the positive effects of mico/keto. I'm not sure if the Adenosine receptor activation (how minoxidil actually increases VEGF and grows hair) is worth the increase in ER beta activation. I'm going to think about this a bit more. But if you want to avoid minox, then you should definitely try the ethanolic solution or even make your own. You MUST dissolve the oleuropein.

The mice study seems great! I am going to go ahead and use

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Herb-Pharm-Extract-Liquid-29-6ml/dp/B001E0X2EG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449612675&sr=8-1&keywords=herb+pharm+olive+leaf+extract+liquid+29.6ml+1floz

with tretinoid as it increases absorption. If it works similar on humans I can expect great results...

Not too sure about this brand. If you're buying from amazon uk then I'd suggest the one joshuk linked below, that ones got numbers and its an ethanolic mixture which is perfect as is. I will advise you to get yourself some emu oil as that will help with application rather than tretinoin. Yes, tretinoin can increase skin permeability, but its a keratinocyte proliferation stabilizer - good for acne, but hair rely on the proliferation of kerainocytes. There are studies which demonstrate the negative effect of the tretinoid receptors on hair follicles, I'll have to dig them up. Here a study that shows even small amount of tretinoin with minoxidil produced sub par results in comparison to minox alone.

Tretinoin was reported to increase percutaneous absorption of Minoxidil by increasing the stratum corneum permeability [32]. Our study demonstrated that Tretinoin in combination with Minoxidil caused a significant increase in hair growth and a significant increase in hair follicle diameter. However, in this study the results obtained from the combination of Minoxidil with low dose Tretinoin are less than that of Minoxidil alone and this warrants further studies to evaluate the role of Tretinoin in combination with Minoxidil in the treatment of hair loss.

Can someone confirm that the liquid in the amazon link is the stuff to use..if so how much would you use daily..appreciate the feedback

Thanks much appreciated

I see others have asked before but in simple terms how is this meant to work? ..thanks

I'd recommend this link: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o00_s00

Courtesy of joshuk.

In simple terms:

DHT increases DKK1
DKK1 inhibits hair growth
Oleuropein inhibits DKK1, thus allowing your hair to growth

DHT also increases 3BetaDiol
3BetaDiol activates ER Beta
ER Beta cuts off the blood supply to your hair follicles
Ketoconazole and miconazole prevent DHT from increasing 3BetaDiol

Hair grows faster with WNT10b
Oleuropein increases WNT10b

I'm going to make a diagram to make it easier to visualise. I really want people to understand the science because I dont want people blindly trying whatever they see on the internet. Knowledge is power, if you do not understand, do not make reckless decisions. Ask first, I will try to clarify, and only then should you make informed decisions.

hi just posted to say thanks to chemical for an indepth look at wnt/dkk1 channels and also do you think this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o00_s00 would be suitable to use as a topical im also using CB-03-01 which would help with DKK1 if i read it properly.

Thank you Josh! That brand is perfect. CB should definitely help and I want to see how oleuropein augments AR antagonists. Keep us posted.

[joshuk]

hi just posted to say thanks to chemical for an indepth look at wnt/dkk1 channels and also do you think this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o00_s00 would be suitable to use as a topical im also using CB-03-01 which would help with DKK1 if i read it properly.

[Eire1980]

Sure it is, it is olive leaf extract, so it contains oleuropein. I will use it enough so it covers the area. This is test and trial... Will report in few months.

Thanks much appreciated

I see others have asked before but in simple terms how is this meant to work? ..thanks

[SriHanuman]

Sure it is, it is olive leaf extract, so it contains oleuropein. I will use it enough so it covers the area. This is test and trial... Will report in few months.

[Eire1980]

The mice study seems great! I am going to go ahead and use

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Herb-Pharm-Extract-Liquid-29-6ml/dp/B001E0X2EG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1449612675&sr=8-1&keywords=herb+pharm+olive+leaf+extract+liquid+29.6ml+1floz

with tretinoid as it increases absorption. If it works similar on humans I can expect great results...

Can someone confirm that the liquid in the amazon link is the stuff to use..if so how much would you use daily..appreciate the feedback