S-equol again

[Adaku]

Nobody commented my last few posts...

I'm going all in.
I'm ordering 100 grams of pure equol from china. I'll be taking around 0.5-1 gram DAILY, (that is 15-20x what you guys are taking - but I dont know how much of that will absorb) Anyhow, I expect that to last me 4+ months, I should see some results by then.

If it is pure equol, it will probably absorb well enough. Have you had any luck finding a lab to test the purity?
In any case, keep us updated on your results.

[PinotQ]

Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:

No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL

Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?

I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.

Adaku, The thing I am not clear about is what effect equol has on serum DHT. The studies show that equol reduces serum DHT. It sounds like they are referring to total DHT in those studies but can't be sure. And my total DHT levels seem unusually low for just finasteride but this may or may not have anything to do with equol. Equol's mechanism of action is to bind to DHT as opposed to preventing testosterone from being converted to DHT. I'm not an endocrinologist but that would seem to mean that total DHT would be lowered by finasteride but not by equol and that Free DHT would be lowered by equol yet unaffected by finasteride. I'm just speculating but if this is in fact what is happening, then the dosage of equol that I am taking reduced my Free DHT by somewhere between 34 and 90%. Your variation in total DHT from 44 to 41 may amount to nothing more than normal day to day variation just as my total DHT was 7.6 vs. 9 in the 2 tests I took. But that doesn't mean that your Free DHT hasn't been reduced. One of the reasons that I decided to take the Free DHT test was Gronholms post above questioning whether a total DHT test is capable of measuring the effect of equol. I think his logic makes a lot of sense. You might consider taking a Free DHT test although it runs about $290. I am coming up on the 5 month mark next week so I hope to be able to give an opinion, in just over a month, on what effect I think equol is having on my hair.

[bananana]

If it is pure equol, it will probably absorb well enough. Have you had any luck finding a lab to test the purity?
In any case, keep us updated on your results.

No luck with lab, most of them are like "we do only scientific work here etc", if someone finds the lab,
I'll be glad to send a gram.

Anyhow, I'll take a pretty big dosage so we'll see what happens

[Gari Baldi]

Disappointing news, my blood test results are work:

No Equol: DHT 44 ng/dL
48 MG Equol: DHT 41 ng/dL

Only a three ng/dL difference in total DHT. This would make sense with PinotQ's total DHT results, as the 144mg he was taking would reduce his levels by about ~10 ng/dL, putting his finasteride-only levels around ~17 ng/dL. PinotQ, any thoughts on the results?

I'm thinking that the equol works, but it'd be prohibitively expensive. I'd think you'd need at least 250 mg daily to have an effect that'd come close to fin. That'd be just about $30/day, or about $900/month perpetually, which isn't worth it in my opinion.

Your test results are not relevant. Contrarily to fin, Equol is NOT supposed to lower your total DHT. What it does is it binds to it, thus not allowing it to become free DHT and preventing it to bind to receptor sites.

I think most people who have tried Equol in the past have not been sticking to it long enough. Like fin, it could take close to a year before you start getting results.

[Gari Baldi]

Free DHT would be lowered by equol yet unaffected by finasteride.

Actually Finasteride lowers the production of all DHT, free DHT included.

[Adaku]

Hm, unfortunately I cannot afford a free DHT blood test at the moment. Does anyone else here have any plans to test that (in absence of anything else that might lower it)?
I'll try to take a look at some studies later to see what they're measuring for DHT to verify it one way or another. The logic for free DHT does make sense.

I'm planning to continue at least for the next few months on Nature's Sunshine equol at the same dosage in any case, so I will keep everyone updated as well.

[burtandernie]

Why would you not get sides like fin unless it doesnt do anything? I dont get how lowering DHT a different way is going to avoid the sides but im not sure it even lowers DHT. Why distinguish between free and total DHT both act locally on the hair follicles right?

[ItchForTheCure]

The sides are most likely the result of neurosteroids being inhibited by blocking the enzyme 5 alpha reductase. Fin/Dut reduces DHT by this process. Equol allows DHT to be produced normally, but just simply binds to it like SHBG. By taking equol you are simply introducing more ways for DHT to get bound before reaching an androgen receptor.

Unless someone does a proper pre/after equol free DHT test we aren't going to know. All we'll have is people simply reporting back after being on equol for 5 months+.

[kmit028]

Hm, unfortunately I cannot afford a free DHT blood test at the moment. Does anyone else here have any plans to test that (in absence of anything else that might lower it)?
I'll try to take a look at some studies later to see what they're measuring for DHT to verify it one way or another. The logic for free DHT does make sense.

I'm planning to continue at least for the next few months on Nature's Sunshine equol at the same dosage in any case, so I will keep everyone updated as well.

Hey man,
Can you comment on any side effects that you may have experienced? Specifically limp dick or libido? (its what we all wanna know )

[HairIsLife]

The sides are most likely the result of neurosteroids being inhibited by blocking the enzyme 5 alpha reductase.

All the more reason why it's not worth taking. Blocking the body's natural function to save some hair ? No thanks.

[brunobald]

What do you guys think about crowd funding Adaku's free dht test. It would be a scientific move in the right direction and well worth doing as this could benefit us all.

[thechamp]

Why hasn't any one tried s equol topically ??

[balding1983]

There is a clinical study which I posted earlier which found a drop in DHT. I couldn't really understand how this was brought about knowing the mode of action of equol.
In general testing testosterone and DHT levels to see if its working is not reliable because both tend to fluctuate significantly day-to-day.
A more accurate way of seeing if equol is having an effect is to monitor the PSA. That way, it wouldn't matter what your total OR Free DHT is as we will have an indication of the level of effect any available DHT would be having. PSA will fall with equol as it inhibit the growth of the prostate like Finasteride.

I'm still keen to try high dose equol for at least. Can I ask if there are any who are interested in trying this Europe of UK to please contact Nature's sunshine. I already have and it is a long process to get legal permission from the NS (US). Hopefully, the process can be expedited if more people show interest.

[PinotQ]

There is a clinical study which I posted earlier which found a drop in DHT. I couldn't really understand how this was brought about knowing the mode of action of equol.
In general testing testosterone and DHT levels to see if its working is not reliable because both tend to fluctuate significantly day-to-day.
A more accurate way of seeing if equol is having an effect is to monitor the PSA. That way, it wouldn't matter what your total OR Free DHT is as we will have an indication of the level of effect any available DHT would be having. PSA will fall with equol as it inhibit the growth of the prostate like Finasteride.

I'm still keen to try high dose equol for at least. Can I ask if there are any who are interested in trying this Europe of UK to please contact Nature's sunshine. I already have and it is a long process to get legal permission from the NS (US). Hopefully, the process can be expedited if more people show interest.

In looking back over the research studies, including the one you posted, all 3 appear to be indicating a decrease in total serum DHT, as opposed to free DHT. In the study you posted I noticed that it says: "The free testosterone level showed a significant decrease in the equol producers". This is first first time I have seen this and it would seem to suggest that equol also binds to testosterone. If that is correct, then maybe there is less testosterone available to be converted to DHT thus lowering total DHT levels.

Also, note this study which shows that equol did not affect PSA levels: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php

[burtandernie]

The reason propecia causes sides though is the drop in DHT as the result of lowering the enzyme. Equol is just getting the same result a different way your still going to get the same sides because you have significantly less DHT. Its going to do the same thing as propecia except its less proven