Histogen at the ISHRS conference

[rdawg]

Wow, those pictures look INCREDIBLE...if they are in fact accurate and reliable? I hadnt seen any pictures from Histogen that looked anything like it, only the bird's eye view of a middle aged man's wispy hairs looking vaguely longer after a course of treatment...nothing as substantial and as thick as the pictures a few posts above me!!!!!!

This is good news, no??!!

It's definitely a positive early result.

doing a quick search you can find the other pictures.

I'd say(this is my personal assesment), of around the 8-10 or so people they showed, about 5-6 had noticeable growth(minor to moderate), the others maintained. Noone lost hair.

again a few were very debatable due to poor photo taking which I'm not liking but I hope they fix that in the next update(for example a bright flash in one picture, no flash in the next, come on guys!) But overall you can tell some of them gained in a minor way, which for any product in trial is a good thing.

So as of now, if it were released it would be an OK product, that reversed some Vellus hairs(ziering says most if not all had vellus hairs at least somewhat reversed, this is somewhat noticeable in the picture) But I'm hoping and optimistic that it will become a better product in IIb.

So yes you should be cautiously optimistic, at least from my point of view.

[jman91]

how does the percentage growth work? like they say most patients experienced a 40% increase in density..what does that mean for a norwood 7? that their 0 density on top will increase 40% to become 0 density still? i dont get it, could someone please explain.

[Pate]

how does the percentage growth work? like they say most patients experienced a 40% increase in density..what does that mean for a norwood 7? that their 0 density on top will increase 40% to become 0 density still? i dont get it, could someone please explain.

They don't test it on NW7s or slick bald areas. They only test it on areas that have at least some terminal hairs remaining.

This is because they need good results for funding and they figure those areas that have less miniaturisation will respond better (which is logical). Nobody really knows how well it'll work on slick bald scalp yet.

So if there are 40 terminal hairs in the field of view of the photo at baseline and then there are 56 terminal hairs at 3 months, that's a 40% increase in terminal hairs.

They don't inject anywhere there are 0 terminal hairs. Except one patient that Ziering mentioned in his trial, but they don't do hair counts in Ziering's trial anyway, because they don't shave the area. It's only the microscopic photos that have hair counts and they're all from the Phase II.

Still no info from Ziering on whether the one slick bald injections trial grew hair.

[rdawg]

Still no info from Ziering on whether the one slick bald injections trial grew hair.

Yea plus ONE guy isnt really a good determining factor on whether or not it works. But if he didnt mention it, it probably didnt do anything yet(in fairness he mentioned that back in june, so the guy had his first injections only 6 months ago or so.)

They need to expand this to 100+ patients. How many are expected to take part in Phase IIb+ Zierings next tests?

[Pate]

Yea plus ONE guy isnt really a good determining factor on whether or not it works. But if he didnt mention it, it probably didnt do anything yet(in fairness he mentioned that back in june, so the guy had his first injections only 6 months ago or so.)

They need to expand this to 100+ patients. How many are expected to take part in Phase IIb+ Zierings next tests?

Yeah one guy isn't enough, especially if they don't get growth... although if they do get growth that would be revolutionary. It would mean reversal of fibrosis which appears to be the real barrier to growing hair on slick bald scalp.

They'd need at least 100 patients for a proper dose-ranging study I would think. Hopefully they have enough funding for it.

Not even sure if Ziering is going to do more tests? His trial was for the IND application and once that's approved they might not need him to do any more.

Hanging out for the photos of his trial after 12 months with injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks... that will be make or break for HSC I think.

[rdawg]

Hanging out for the photos of his trial after 12 months with injections at 0, 6, 12 and 18 weeks... that will be make or break for HSC I think.

This year itself will be make or break for histogen.

We will know by Oct-December 2013 the near-full potential of what HSC can do, hopefully that's alot better than what they have now.

But even then, I'd say they're on track for release, they've proven minor growth/maintainence and it seems very safe, I dont see how they'd get turned down from approval to the market at this point.

[jman91]

They don't test it on NW7s or slick bald areas. They only test it on areas that have at least some terminal hairs remaining.

This is because they need good results for funding and they figure those areas that have less miniaturisation will respond better (which is logical). Nobody really knows how well it'll work on slick bald scalp yet.

So if there are 40 terminal hairs in the field of view of the photo at baseline and then there are 56 terminal hairs at 3 months, that's a 40% increase in terminal hairs.

They don't inject anywhere there are 0 terminal hairs. Except one patient that Ziering mentioned in his trial, but they don't do hair counts in Ziering's trial anyway, because they don't shave the area. It's only the microscopic photos that have hair counts and they're all from the Phase II.

Still no info from Ziering on whether the one slick bald injections trial grew hair.

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. Would it be a reasonable assumption then that this treatment could atleast thicken the donor area on a nw7, thus making a transplant more viable for those with low donor density in order to cover an extended area of the scalp? For example a norwood 7 would probably need about 6000-8000 grafts to get a cosmetically good result and if they had a donor density allowing for a max of 4000 grafts with a histogen treatment their donor density increases by 50% to 6000 grafts...is this theoretically on the cards? I am a diffuse NW2.5 and think that in 10 years time (my estimation for when this treamtment will me on the market) i will be atleast a NW6 so I am trying to figure out how useful this treatment will be for me by then.

[jman91]

We will know by Oct-December 2013 the near-full potential of what HSC can do, hopefully that's alot better than what they have now.

what do you think the final percentage regrowth will be by then?

[Pate]

Ok, thanks for clearing that up for me. Would it be a reasonable assumption then that this treatment could atleast thicken the donor area on a nw7, thus making a transplant more viable for those with low donor density in order to cover an extended area of the scalp? For example a norwood 7 would probably need about 6000-8000 grafts to get a cosmetically good result and if they had a donor density allowing for a max of 4000 grafts with a histogen treatment their donor density increases by 50% to 6000 grafts...is this theoretically on the cards? I am a diffuse NW2.5 and think that in 10 years time (my estimation for when this treamtment will me on the market) i will be atleast a NW6 so I am trying to figure out how useful this treatment will be for me by then.

I don't think any of them will thicken donor because there is already a full density of follicles there. However they MAY grow some totally new follicles on a NW6 or 7's bald areas.

Replicel has reported that when follicles are there, the cells migrate into the existing follicles. When there are no follicles, the cells can coalesce to form a new follicle. The problem is, like every damn balding treatment out there, it is more effective on mice than it is on humans.

So if Replicel or Aderans can get their technology working properly in humans they MAY be able to grow some follicles on a NW6, and then transplant between the follicles that have grown. This would help conserve donor.

I even read the other day that Histogen did observe new follicle creation in mice with HSC, which is very interesting because Histogen don't actually inject cells, just the growth factors. So again it is possible that HSC could create new follicles on slick bald scalp too, as opposed to just reactivating damaged ones.

But for some reason it never seems to translate properly into humans.

Anyway. If you are 10 years away from a NW6 you will hopefully be okay. What are you doing to hang onto your hair now? It's extremely important to hang on to what you have now rather than count on regrowing. Because once that fibrosis sets in, scar tissue constricts around the follicle and there's no guarantee even Histogen will be super effective at reversing it.

This seems to be the big difference between humans and animals like mice and macaques. Balding in mice and macaques is due to androgens but there is no scarring component so anti-androgens can reverse hair loss very effectively. But in humans, once that scarring sets in, the follicle is damaged. I strongly suspect that that is why all these treatments that work well in animals and in vitro don't work nearly as well in humans.

[Pate]

what do you think the final percentage regrowth will be by then?

The best performers should have more than 100% increase in both terminal hair count and total hair density.

The average should hopefully be around 50% increases.

About 10% of patients won't respond at all.

[jman91]

Anyway. If you are 10 years away from a NW6 you will hopefully be okay. What are you doing to hang onto your hair now? It's extremely important to hang on to what you have now rather than count on regrowing. Because once that fibrosis sets in, scar tissue constricts around the follicle and there's no guarantee even Histogen will be super effective at reversing it.
.

I've been on fin for about 18 months and noticed 0 regrowth or thickening but have had no shedding or noticeable loss since starting, is that normal? becuase i really cant tell if my progression would have naturally halted for a while or the fin is doing its job. I am worried that by the time treatments come out me, and lots of members of here, will be too far gone to get any benefit.

[Pate]

I've been on fin for about 18 months and noticed 0 regrowth or thickening but have had no shedding or noticeable loss since starting, is that normal? becuase i really cant tell if my progression would have naturally halted for a while or the fin is doing its job. I am worried that by the time treatments come out me, and lots of members of here, will be too far gone to get any benefit.

Yes, that's normal.

Stay on fin. As long as you're not going backwards you are fine. In most men fin effectively halts hair loss for at least 5 years.

[jman91]

Yes, that's normal.

Stay on fin. As long as you're not going backwards you are fine. In most men fin effectively halts hair loss for at least 5 years.

whats ur NW history and regime? and out of interest when do you think histogen or any other will release a truly effective treatment?

[Pate]

whats ur NW history and regime? and out of interest when do you think histogen or any other will release a truly effective treatment?

I'm 31. Was NW3 until I was 28, started fin and within 6 months was a NW5. I have no idea whether fin was responsible for that or if it was just my time. I suspect fin accelerated my natural loss for a while as my body got used to the drug and upregulated androgen receptors. Eventually it stopped and fin has halted my loss since then except when I stop taking it for a month, which I've done twice and lost more hair both times.

I will be a slick bald NW6 when all is said and done, like my mother's father. Curretly I've got about 10% terminal hair left in my NW5 zone.

I used to use the Big 3, now I've dropped minox because its effects are pretty minor and I'm just trying to hang on to what I have until a stem cell based treatment comes out.

I'm also about to start RU, if it ever gets through customs. Apparently it's been shipped from the US so it should arrive soon.

I think Histogen and Aderans both have a marketable product that should be available around 2017. However neither of them are particularly good yet, and I wouldn't call either of them an effective treatment - just a more effective treatment than anything we have so far.

I am hopeful that if you get enough Histogen injections over a long enough period of time, most guys would be able to restore effectively full cosmetic density in parts of their scalp that have SOME terminal hair left.

But at this stage that's still a big unknown.

[jman91]

I'm 31. Was NW3 until I was 28, started fin and within 6 months was a NW5. I have no idea whether fin was responsible for that or if it was just my time. I suspect fin accelerated my natural loss for a while as my body got used to the drug and upregulated androgen receptors. Eventually it stopped and fin has halted my loss since then except when I stop taking it for a month, which I've done twice and lost more hair both times.

I will be a slick bald NW6 when all is said and done, like my mother's father. Curretly I've got about 10% terminal hair left in my NW5 zone.

I used to use the Big 3, now I've dropped minox because its effects are pretty minor and I'm just trying to hang on to what I have until a stem cell based treatment comes out.

I'm also about to start RU, if it ever gets through customs. Apparently it's been shipped from the US so it should arrive soon.

I think Histogen and Aderans both have a marketable product that should be available around 2017. However neither of them are particularly good yet, and I wouldn't call either of them an effective treatment - just a more effective treatment than anything we have so far.

I am hopeful that if you get enough Histogen injections over a long enough period of time, most guys would be able to restore effectively full cosmetic density in parts of their scalp that have SOME terminal hair left.

But at this stage that's still a big unknown.

I have heard a lot about RU but dont think i have the balls or time to take that stuff. 2017 is actually pretty close, the way i think about it is the World Cup flies past and before you know its 4 years later and the next World Cup is starting. As you are NW5 have you considered the tranplant route yet or will you hold on for other options? Even though im only a 2.5 i can tell with my diffuse pattern im heading for NW6 so I am already thinking about future transplants (only once i get past 5).