Hidden Gem -> MSM/Vit C & TRX2 - a fin alternative?

[yeahyeahyeah]

There's a bunch of stuff that contains beta-sis: Nuts and beans, vegetable oils, corn based snacks, margarine, dressing, mayonaise, chocolate, egg, bananas, the list goes on.

I bet most people consume numerous products every day containing equal, or higher, amount of beta-sis as Toco-8.

The cost is not really an issue here, I want to give Toco-8 a chance but at the same I don't want to interfere with the MSM/vitC combo.

But if your only issue with Toco-8 is the minimal amount of beta-sis it contains I don't think it's anything to worry about.


On what do you base the assumption that Toco-8 was effective solely because of its beta-sitosterol?

I've read that vitamin E helps capillary grow, which may be another explanation to why it was found to grow hair.

Regarding androgen levels, I was under the impression that finasteride and the like dropped your androgen levels, like and "opposite" to steroids, not boosted them...

toco 8 doesnt work

[Space]

the levels of beta sitosterol in them are pretty minute hence why they probably will not have any sort of adverse effect - since beta sitosterol binds to cholesterol too meaning some(if not all) of it is lost to this so cannot gain access to Androgen Recptors.

You don't see a flaw in your logic here? The levels of beta-sis is just as low in toco-8, so why would that have an adverse effect?

According to this article most Americans daily diet contains about 200-300mg of beta-sitosterol, and apparently that's not even adequate. Toco-8 on the other hand, contains 9mg of beta-sitosterol. That's 3%, and I'm pretty sure I consume more fruits than the average American, so for me it's probably an even more insignificant percentage of my daily intake.

some people are extremeley sensitive and can cause upregulation by a small amount such as the amount present in toco8.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, androgen receptor upregulation is caused by low androgen levels, right?

You just wrote that Toco-8 increased your androgen levels in your previous post, so why would it cause androgen receptor upregulation?

Sorry if I misinterpreted you here.

[gutted]

You don't see a flaw in your logic here? The levels of beta-sis is just as low in toco-8, so why would that have an adverse effect?

According to this article most Americans daily diet contains about 200-300mg of beta-sitosterol, and apparently that's not even adequate. Toco-8 on the other hand, contains 9mg of beta-sitosterol. That's 3%, and I'm pretty sure I consume more fruits than the average American, so for me it's probably an even more insignificant percentage of my daily intake.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, androgen receptor upregulation is caused by low androgen levels, right?

You just wrote that Toco-8 increased your androgen levels in your previous post, so why would it cause androgen receptor upregulation?

Sorry if I misinterpreted you here.

its the consistency of taking beta sitosterol through toco8 supplementation. The dietery intake, likley, isnt consistent enough to cause/have any effect. There are other sterols present in toco8 that can affect/lower cholesterol levels - im not certain but this can have an indirect affect on androgen levels.

i took it a few years ago,although i wasnt self aware, hair wise at the time, but one thing i do know, i had sides using it/and not much results - i didnt use the toco8 brand i used the lef brand -> http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...otrienols.html

blocking the receptor can cause the body to upregulate its production of androgens as well as upregulate receptor activity. <- this is something that can affect your results with msm/vit c hence why i say you are better off not using it, together with the fact that there are no results reported by the people who use it.

you can use it if you want to but, you should note any libido changes/increased sebum secretion, and drop the toco8 should you feel like you are experiencig these symptoms.

[Space]

its the consistency of taking beta sitosterol through toco8 supplementation. The dietery intake, likley, isnt consistent enough to cause/have any effect. There are other sterols present in toco8 that can affect/lower cholesterol levels - im not certain but this can have an indirect affect on androgen levels.

How is it not consistent if the average American consumes 200-300mg a day? That's as consistent as it gets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that the average American doesn't eat enough fruit. I do, which means I get even more beta-sitosterol in my daily diet, since almost all fruit contains it.

The toco-8 merely adds about 1-3% more to my daily intake, how can that possibly have any effect that so ever?

i took it a few years ago,although i wasnt self aware, hair wise at the time, but one thing i do know, i had sides using it/and not much results - i didnt use the toco8 brand i used the lef brand -> http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Suppleme...otrienols.html

That one doesn't seem to have Beta-sitosterol in it.

However, what kind of side effects did you experience?

blocking the receptor can cause the body to upregulate its production of androgens as well as upregulate receptor activity. <- this is something that can affect your results with msm/vit c hence why i say you are better off not using it, together with the fact that there are no results reported by the people who use it.

Why would toco-8 block the receptor? The 3% beta-sitosterol boost to my daily diet?

[gutted]

How is it not consistent if the average American consumes 200-300mg a day? That's as consistent as it gets.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that the average American doesn't eat enough fruit. I do, which means I get even more beta-sitosterol in my daily diet, since almost all fruit contains it.

The toco-8 merely adds about 1-3&#37; more to my daily intake, how can that possibly have any effect that so ever?


That one doesn't seem to have Beta-sitosterol in it.

However, what kind of side effects did you experience?

Why would toco-8 block the receptor? The 3% beta-sitosterol boost to my daily diet?

it could be through other mechanisms that toco8 causes the upreglation - im not fully aware of how, but the beta sitosterol and the other sterols is something to watch out for. There are other varibales such as how you take it - taking beta sitosterol with food means it binds to cholesterol thus isnt able to gain access to the AR, but lowers cholesterol by blocking it thus having another indirect effect on androgen levels (since cholesterol is used to synthesise these homrones). Statin drugs (drugs that lower cholesterol) are known to cause excessive hair loss for reasons unknown.

As i have said the beta sitosterol is known to compete with the receptor/inhibit 5 alpha reductase but much if it is contradictory and not concrete. Blocking dht in any way is likley to impact this regime.

i had low libido when i was taking it and another innoeve product that contained phytosterols at the time. - i guess i was increasingly sensitive to beta sitosterol and i know without a doubt it was the beta sitosterol. You may be lucky and not so sensitive to its effects.

you can use it if you want to but to keep things standardised, use the regime alone and then perhaps add the toco8 a few months down the line. Its up to you.

[Space]

it could be through other mechanisms that toco8 causes the upreglation - im not fully aware of how, but the beta sitosterol and the other sterols is something to watch out for. There are other varibales such as how you take it - taking beta sitosterol with food means it binds to cholesterol thus isnt able to gain access to the AR, but lowers cholesterol by blocking it thus having another indirect effect on androgen levels (since cholesterol is used to synthesise these homrones). Statin drugs (drugs that lower cholesterol) are known to cause excessive hair loss for reasons unknown.

Toco-8 is as I understand it completely natural, meaning you might as well get these things from eating fruit or something. I really don't think it's comparable to statin drugs or anything like that.

Plus I take my toco-8 in a smoothie with oats and a bunch of other stuff.

i had low libido when i was taking it and another innoeve product that contained phytosterols at the time. - i guess i was increasingly sensitive to beta sitosterol and i know without a doubt it was the beta sitosterol. You may be lucky and not so sensitive to its effects.

you can use it if you want to but to keep things standardised, use the regime alone and then perhaps add the toco8 a few months down the line. Its up to you.

That begs the question what other thing you were taking?

[gutted]

That begs the question what other thing you were taking?

http://cosmeticsublime.gostorego.com/inneov-men-anti-hairloss-60-caplets.html

[Cob984]

im now one month into msm/vitc and 2 weeks into trx2 and my hair has never been in worse shape ever!! the only style i can wear now is a combover and even there my receding hairline is starting to show, i am in agony and really tempted to get back on the saw palmetto, i know it might be impatient but im losing it here

[ammin]

I am dropping the MSM too. It makes my hair feel softer and I hate the feeling. I remember I was overseas for a week and did not bring my MSM with me and my hair felt coarser and I like that. I am not dropping the Vit C or TRX 2 though. These two work in my opinion. MSM and Vit C might work too in combination with each other but their effects on my hair texture are unbearable.

[Jcm800]

Have to chime in here as well. My hair texture is softer than I'm used too as well, not liking that myself, what's that about gutted?

[Ginkosama]

A few more questions :

-MSM speeds up the hair cycle right ? But doesn't a hair have a definite number of cycles and when it's over, it's over, it won't grow back ? So even if it's not cosmetically visible aren't we accelerating MPB ?

-does MSM increase body hair as well ?


Atm I am following "the natural"'s treatment from ************. I just ignored the MSM and Vit C cause I didn't find it relevant (nice move I know ..)

So far I am taking aged garlic extract with a glass of orange juice in the morning (for extra vit C) and one pill of toco sorb.
For lunch I take tumeric and ginger (gonna add cayenne soon to optimise absorption).
For dinner I take fish oil and one toco sorb.

I also take a gram of nigella seeds at every meal.


I am 2 months in and I have nothing positive to report yet apart from a great energy and libido.

I am gonna wait for the 3 months deadline to see how it goes and incorporate MSM and Vit C.

[Jcm800]

Gutted, you done a runner? Lol

[gutted]

hi guys sorry have not come on to update, i feel a lot less need to come to the forums now.

As for the softer texture to hair whilst on msm, i havent noticed this effect - it could be very weak, new hairs growing out of the scalp making it look as if your hair has changed texture.

i have to stress results for this take time, you need to give at least a min of 6 months ALONE to a max of 12 months. If your not prepared to do this, theres no point in trying and wasting money.

[gutted]

im now one month into msm/vitc and 2 weeks into trx2 and my hair has never been in worse shape ever!! the only style i can wear now is a combover and even there my receding hairline is starting to show, i am in agony and really tempted to get back on the saw palmetto, i know it might be impatient but im losing it here

if you read the thread i did state this will happen. it will take 3 weeks to 3 months for this to balance out for you, dont be foolish and jump on saw palmetto again, you may perceieve it to reduce your hair loss , but this effect is shortlived and you WILL start shedding again. ride the shed out and it will calm down and will regrow 3 months down the line.

I can say now say that since i dropped saw palmetto in end of august only the last 2 weeks have i noticed a reduction in these sheds - thats 2 months till these sheds/hormaones/AR's balanced out and calmed down for me. Now i literally lose a few hairs here and there which is normal.

[gutted]

A few more questions :

-MSM speeds up the hair cycle right ? But doesn't a hair have a definite number of cycles and when it's over, it's over, it won't grow back ? So even if it's not cosmetically visible aren't we accelerating MPB ?

yes it does speed up the cycle by keeping hairs in the angen phase/which minox does too. There are no definite number of cycles, these are myths. There will be no accelleration of mpb. In fact msm stops mpb. fin delays mpb.

-does MSM increase body hair as well ?

yes it does, body hair grows longer, beard hair grows faster. Hair all over the body grows much faster than usual.

Atm I am following "the natural"'s treatment from ************. I just ignored the MSM and Vit C cause I didn't find it relevant (nice move I know ..)

So far I am taking aged garlic extract with a glass of orange juice in the morning (for extra vit C) and one pill of toco sorb.
For lunch I take tumeric and ginger (gonna add cayenne soon to optimise absorption).
For dinner I take fish oil and one toco sorb.

I also take a gram of nigella seeds at every meal.


I am 2 months in and I have nothing positive to report yet apart from a great energy and libido.

I am gonna wait for the 3 months deadline to see how it goes and incorporate MSM and Vit C.

i tied aged garlic extract with this combo earlier in th year, it doesnt work, the best results are achieved using the combo alone.

As for tocosorb you can read my views on it in this thread.