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It took them years to do phase 2, how do you know they will be done with phase 3 so quickly?
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The pic I posted, is based on Dr. Washenik's original timeline pic he presented in June 2010 in Tokyo - I have just prolonged accordingly his timeline pic.
Anyway, in Washenik's timeline pic, he calculated for every phase 2 and phase 3 trail (see the BLACK arrows Washenik made in the pic!) around 15-18 month.
here is Washenik's original timeline pic:
He is actually very similar to Nigam:
Washenik changes every 2 years his protocol, Nigam every 2 days.Comment
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Desmond, you've mentioned several times you think cultured DP cells don't increase or decrease in number so doesn't there have to be some type of upper limit on the number of cells you can have placed in your scalp like this and if we're worried about a remote chance of skin cancer does this increase it or is the cancer risk really unrelated to the dosage?Comment
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That's a really good question and unfortunately only can be answered by the Aderans team. Their preclinical studies showed that extra DP cells do find their way into the hair follicle and aggregate with the original DP cells. So although there might be an upper limit, if the hair follicle has shrunk then more DP cells may be able to bind!
With regards to cancer, that's something they've been monitoring for FDA approval since day 1. I am also a bit worried about that but can't really comment until I read their clinical data.
In theory though, it should be OK. I mean even though we don't have anybody offering DP transplantation at this point, we know of many hospitals using stem cell transplantations and that has proven safe with no risk of cancer!Comment
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I wouldn't worry too much about the ones that didn't make it!
Your body has immune cells that Police the intracellular environment. These include T cells, B cells, Macrophages, etc...
If they detect a cell that shouldn't be there, they either engulf it and cause phagocytosis (implode) or rupture the cell and cause apoptosis (explode).
Btw I just replied to ur email
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"The cells of the DP are not only essential for hair follicle development and function, but are also a reservoir of cells with the potential to differentiate into a range of cell types that are of potential therapeutic importance"
Maybe those cells unused by the follicles are destroyed by the immune system, but I guess theres a chance that they become different cell types.Comment
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Thanks, Desmond - I didn't see your answer.Here's a little summary
DHT is by far the main culprit, hence why Finasteride is so powerful at halting hairloss. Now:
1) To date, we have only found Androgen receptors on the dermal papillae & sebaceous glands of hair follicles.
- DP cells are the most important contributor to follicle growth and cycling.
- Sebaceous glands don't serve any roles in terms of growth, they are more of a supportive structure.
Hence, the reason why Aderans decided to use DP cells! Here's the link:
YOUR LINK DOESN'T WORK!
2) Here's the most AMAZING finding: back in late 90's it was found that "Dermal papillae extracted from occipital scalp hair follicles (donor area) lack Androgen receptors!
Here's the link:
That's why I think at least in theory, DHT-resistance may be possible!
In another word, after DP transplantation, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle (this is known as a "chimeric" follicle btw):
1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.
2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!
Here's a little excerpt from one of the publications I found:
"The treatment area would be miniaturized follicles that are cosmetically insignificant, and the strategy would be to rejuvenate miniaturized follicles by the insertion of hair-inductive DP cells. Because the cellular target in androgenetic alopecia is the dermal papilla, providing the follicle with new, androgen-insensitive DP cells might reactivate the follicle to form a normal (terminal) hair. "
Furthermore:
"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate." They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."
Anyway, the 1st posted link doesn't work - so I can't see who are the scientists who talk so much BS. The thingy with the sebaceous glands is correct. The "Tokyo-guys" confirmed this recently too.Comment
- DP cells are the most important contributor to follicle growth and cycling.
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Who made the black arrow, you or him?The pic I posted, is based on Dr. Washenik's original timeline pic he presented in June 2010 in Tokyo - I have just prolonged accordingly his timeline pic.
Anyway, in Washenik's timeline pic, he calculated for every phase 2 and phase 3 trail (see the BLACK arrows Washenik made in the pic!) around 15-18 month.
here is Washenik's original timeline pic:
He is actually very similar to Nigam:
Washenik changes every 2 years his protocol, Nigam every 2 days.
I am confused.Comment
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Guys if Aderans can halt hair loss with a single treatment we are in a much better place than today!
Keep checking this thread for new info! Don't give up my brothers and sisters!
We are most probably really close
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You’re a little bit overoptimistic.
In this presentation (June 2010), Dr. Washenik is talking about “Ji Gami CN” – the final product.
CN is THE product, which works best of all (9 all in all) the other protocols (N, C, etc). In his old timeline table (2010), Dr. WASHENIK (not me or someone else, of course!) calculated the duration for every phase 2 or phase 3 trail with around 15-18 month – again, according to Washenik’s BLACK ARROWS in his old timeline table.
But the phase 2 clinical trail for Ji Gami CN …
... started, in fact, in June, 2012 - and NOT in spring, 2011 (according to Washenik’s old timeline) – right?
According to this …
… THIS would be, in fact (best-case-scenario), the new timeline table.
And there is a question:
How long does it take 1) to get around 1000 trail subjects or so (?) for phase 3 trails – including 2) collecting and evaluating of all the outcome-data after around 18 month or so? And finally 3) how long does it take to get FDA approval thereafter?
And there is still THE big problem concerning "effectiveness" …
If the ARI guys are still using the existing hair follicle structure, and that’s what they say, the mentioned “leakage-problem” in AGA affected skin is definitely NOT solved with this kind of approach.Attached FilesComment
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Dude I had exactly the same thoughts on the release date! Late 2015 sounds reasonable and realistic!You’re a little bit overoptimistic.
In this presentation (June 2010), Dr. Washenik is talking about “Ji Gami CN” – the final product.
CN is THE product, which works best of all (9 all in all) the other protocols (N, C, etc). In his old timeline table (2010), Dr. WASHENIK (not me or someone else, of course!) calculated the duration for every phase 2 or phase 3 trail with around 15-18 month – again, according to Washenik’s BLACK ARROWS in his old timeline table.
But the phase 2 clinical trail for Ji Gami CN …
... started, in fact, in June, 2012 - and NOT in spring, 2011 (according to Washenik’s old timeline) – right?
According to this …
… THIS would be, in fact (best-case-scenario), the new timeline table.
And there is a question:
How long does it take 1) to get around 1000 trail subjects or so (?) for phase 3 trails – including 2) collecting and evaluating of all the outcome-data after around 18 month or so? And finally 3) how long does it take to get FDA approval thereafter?
And there is still THE big problem concerning "effectiveness" …
If the ARI guys are still using the existing hair follicle structure, and that’s what they say, the mentioned “leakage-problem” in AGA affected skin is definitely NOT solved with this kind of approach.
With regards to efficacy, they showed that with a single therapy session they achieved what Propecia could do in 60% of patients! Now I might be optimistic but that's one hell of an achievement!
Don't forget that histogen is also on the horizon and will boost the regrowth numbers even further!
Sorry about the post b4. I just saw that thread about IARHS conference and was raging when I saw the 8-10 years thing!
To a HAIRY FUTURE
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If the leakage thing is true we probably wouldn't be getting results close to Propecia (15-20% regrowth + maintenance).
P.S. That study is in 2003 way before Aderans got to tweak their formula!Comment
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