Updated Research and Knowledge - Cutting Edge

[BaldingEagle]

I disagree what is the point of adding something to fin and/or minox if that something doesn't work. I'll test oleuropein +ecgc combo on its own to see if it does something. If it doesn'nt then there is no point in adding it to any kind of regime.

Agreed, how can you possibly gauge results when fin and min are already disrupting the balding process if you're taking them. You have to test one thing at a time. That is how every clinical trial is done for a reason.

[Sogeking]

you are not using anything to stop MPB. castor oil and Oleuropein wont stop hairloss they are added to help an exsiting protocol, you need FIN/DUT or an AA like RU/CB otherwise you will go bald.you not tried any of these??

i cant use minox either so im using Oleuropein/EGCG mix as a alternative been on it 5 days to early for results.

I disagree what is the point of adding something to fin and/or minox if that something doesn't work. I'll test oleuropein +ecgc combo on its own to see if it does something. If it doesn'nt then there is no point in adding it to any kind of regime.

[potato1987]

Hi Josh, I tried Minox but the bags under my eyes where black and sunken to the bone. I aged so, so quickly and people even commented on it regularly. my eyes are now normal tone but sadly the collagen seems gone, it was belgravia 10% minox. I can't start Fin as my wife and I would like children soon so this throws a spanner in the works. Your on just Oleuropein/EGCG? Could I do the same? I wanted to private message you Josh but couldn't find how.

[joshuk]

Hi Guys,

I am really hoping someone can break down what to buy and use, my hair seems to be thinning at the front and temples at such a rate. I am currently just using castor oil and Oleuropein with some emu oil and derma rolling once a week.

Have done so for about 6 weeks with little to no results.

I tried minox but it gave me such bad eye bags.

I need a minox free solution and I'm getting pretty desperate.

you are not using anything to stop MPB. castor oil and Oleuropein wont stop hairloss they are added to help an exsiting protocol, you need FIN/DUT or an AA like RU/CB otherwise you will go bald.you not tried any of these??

i cant use minox either so im using Oleuropein/EGCG mix as a alternative been on it 5 days to early for results.

[potato1987]

Still thinning

Hi Guys,

I am really hoping someone can break down what to buy and use, my hair seems to be thinning at the front and temples at such a rate. I am currently just using castor oil and Oleuropein with some emu oil and derma rolling once a week.

Have done so for about 6 weeks with little to no results.

I tried minox but it gave me such bad eye bags.

I need a minox free solution and I'm getting pretty desperate.

[SriHanuman]

Chemical,

Yes, it was mg and not %, sorry man, my bad.

[Chemical]

chemical i put 1 cap of EGCG into 60ml of my eth/pg mix which equals 2.5mg/ml i see your using 5mg/ml is it worth putting an extra cap in or just carry on for 1 for a month then add to it.

Looks like we might want to keep EGCC concentration low until we have further confirmation of its topical use in a high ethanol solution, there's potential for irritation as Brian ha pointed out. I will test the current EGCG dose for two weeks before recommending a higher EGCG concentration, just to be on the safe side because I know everyone reacts differently. The last thing we want is irritation induced hair loss. Although perhaps PGE2 might be increased? Wishful thinking...

WARNING : Using too more Keto is not bad for the body (especially your liver) ?

Oral keto at 200mg+ has liver toxicity. We are using it topically, and at reduced concentrations.

Can anyone post a TLR for those of us who don't understand the scientific conversation being held here?

I'll be creating a blog/wiki soon explaining stuff in layman terms - also there is too much info to cover.

@Brian

Turns out you were right, EGCG is irritating: http://www.teavigoinfo.com/pdf/study-7.pdf

I did notice slight irritation in the morning (then again I havent used emu oil for 3 days). Good thing I only added 150mg - I will dilute to 2.5mg if I notice excessive irritation. The OL extract I'm using is 750mg of OL standardized to 20% = 150mg OL per capsule. I'm using the actual OL content figure of 150mg and not the 750mg. Same for EGCG standardized from teavigo @90% yielding 150mg pure EGCG per capsule. The reason for the low OL dose is because I suspect there is a biphasic effect, with higher doses being less effective.

And apparently rosemary oil can be irritating, which is why the extract is much better suited - like you said. It is indeed an AR suppressor too.

Study also said that at least 0.4% solution of oleuropein was required...

0.4mg was the minimum OL dose found to be effective.

[SriHanuman]

Study also said that at least 0.4% solution of oleuropein was required...

[BRIANBOY]

Chemical - I found out I had AA after the transplant, when the hairs would not grow in certain spots. That's when a biopsy was done to confirm. Regarding the mpb, I started receding around 17-18 yrs old. Regarding the allergic reaction with EGCG, I think I was simply using too high of a concentration. Regarding the Rosemary Extract (not the oil), the literature seems to indicate it is not so much a 5AR inhibitor, more of an AR receptor blocker / interference.

<"~1.5mg OL + 5mg EGCG / 1ml Minox. Now things will start to get interesting." -- Chemical >

Please confirm, that you are using 5mg "pure" EGCG per ml = .5% solution? And, the 1.5 mg "pure" OL(oleuropein) per ml = .15% solution? Initially, you were using commercial products which contained a percentage of the active extracts (750 mg Olive Leaf = 150 mg OL), so the active extracts may actually be a lower percentage in solution. I just want to be clear what the actual percentage of active ingredient you are currently using. Your percentages seem low (.5% EGCG & .15% OL per ml), but, maybe you theorize that the lower percent solutions are closer to the clinical tests done on the mice? .. i.e. - less is better?

I am currently adding OL to the mix and applying keto as well. Hoping for the best. Thanks for your input.

[TubZy]

WARNING : Using too more Keto is not bad for the body (especially your liver) ?

Oral only buddy u should know this lol

[ppxrare]

Can anyone post a TLR for those of us who don't understand the scientific conversation being held here?

[Seuxin]

WARNING : Using too more Keto is not bad for the body (especially your liver) ?

[joshuk]

chemical i put 1 cap of EGCG into 60ml of my eth/pg mix which equals 2.5mg/ml i see your using 5mg/ml is it worth putting an extra cap in or just carry on for 1 for a month then add to it.

[Chemical]

And since ketoconazole's half-life is only a few hours, the 2x per day stuff would presumably be better for sustained HIF-1 stabilization.

I'm planning to use 5-7% (others have used it at 7% with no problems). If it causes irritation, I'll lower the concentration.

Interestingly enough, PGD2 activation of CRTH2 supposedly activates GSK3, but also results in phosphorylation of AKT.
Link: New Drugs and Targets for Asthma and COPD
Thanks for the opinion. I'm getting PGE2 through a group buy.
Encouraging so far. Hopefully it keeps progressing.

If you look at figure 2E, you can see PGD2 being elevated 2.5 fold compared to normal haired scalp.

PGD2 levels were then measured using ultra–high-performance liquid chromatography–mass spectrometry (UHPLC-MS) because of its reported superior accuracy in measuring prostaglandins compared to immunoassay (17). In a larger series of paired bald and haired samples from 17 men with AGA, we noted an increase in PGD2 in bald scalp compared to haired scalp (Fig. 2E).

PGD2 activating GSK3b is a very plausibly mechanism for its DPC growth inhibitory effects, so far there hasnt been any evidence of how PGD2 might inhibit hair - just that it does so via GPR44. Cotsarelis also says that PGD2 rises with anagen cycle progression, and peaks during catagen, perhaps there is a feedback loop? There is also the issue of reduced PGE2 increasing the amount of substrate abailable for PTGDS - and androgens apparently reduce PGE2 synthesis (not conclusive).

Regarding HIF-1 destabilisation, I'm still trying to find some more info on whether destabilizing HIF-1 can reduce VEGF expression induced via other mechanisms like BetaCatenin. But blocking ERBeta activation with keto 2x/day should cover all bases and reduce any chance of the HSD family causing any damage. The HSD family can increase locally synthesized androgens possibly adding to the already detrimental testes produced T/DHT.

I came across this study on topical Valproic Acid and LiCl vs minox on mice hair growth: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323655/

Looks like LiCl isnt too suitable due to its aberrant epidermis thickening effects which wasnt seen in VA. It turns out, anything that activates AKT/(PKB) will inactivate (phosphorylate) GSK3b, which includes minox and IGF-1. OL significantly increased IGF-1 more than minox, so stacked with minox theres serious potential of synergy. For people that cant use minox then Valproic Acid seems like a better alternative with equal efficacy.

Chemical, what is your opinion on this publication:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0092984

The study was focusing on FAS-l mediated signalling cascades which is not really indicative of general hair growth promoting effects, but it increase KGF moderately. It can also activate the Pi3K pathway and promote angiogenesis so its definitely caught my attention. I will look into this a bit more when I'm free.

@BRIANBOY

You are a very interesting case study. Its unfortuneate that you've got both MPB and AA, so I can only sympathise, but holy frickin sh*t, you grew back all your hair with EGCG. When did you find out you had AA? And when did you start receding?

My theory is that the transplanted hairs started secreting growth factors to nearby follicles since they're probably less AGA prone, so as soon as the EGCG reduced AR the AGA follicles had a chance to grow. I am curious about the allergic reaction, I dont understand why EGCG might elicit that kind of reaction - then again you noticed it happen out of the blue. Its something to keep in mind for my own experiments. Rosemary oil could also provide additional 5AR inhibition just to add to EGCG's effect, excellent find Brian. Thank you for sharing your experience with us, and I am more than delighted that you understand you might be an outlier/special case given your circumstances, but your anecdote is helpful none the less.

Update

I received by ketoconazole 2% cream last wednesday which I've been using 2x a day. And I also got my EGCG today, which I've mixed with my mxol solution.

~1.5mg OL + 5mg EGCG / 1ml Minox. Now things will start to get interesting.

[BRIANBOY]

Chemical, I think you are on the right path here. Initially I was a norwood 3+. Then had 2 transplants. The results were very moderate after a year. Hair growth was very sparse and thin. The doctor did a biopsy on my scalp and the results came back as a variant of alopecia areata. So, I have both mpb and a form of alopecia areata (jackpot!!). When I started using a 4%-5% solution of (green tea w/50% egcg) in a water / alcohol vehicle, the hair growth really took off. Within a year, I had grown a lot of hair. I kept upping the percentage of green tea, thinking it would further increase the hair growth. (I was up to a 13% solution.) The hair started to get quite thick. Almost too thick in front to even style properly. It was as if the transplants grew in and the hair that was there before started growing back strong as well. I thought, there's no such thing as too much hair. People told me I was lucky to have all my natural hair at my age. At that time, I was a norwood 0 - 1. (And, I was 58 at the time. I also workout / bicycle a lot. So, most thought I was in my mid - late 30s) Then, I developed an allergic reaction (probably because the concentration of green tea was too high). I had to stop all treatments. I didn't use anything for about 6+ months. All the hair that had grown started falling out. After 2 years, I was back where I was before, with very thin hair even though I was using minoxidil. Whenever I challenged using green tea solution again, the allergic response would kick in immediately. I backed off again for another 2 years.

I am now back using a 4% solution of green tea w/50% egcg (in a 74 mil - 75/25 - water / alcohol solution) with rosemary officinalis extract - 1 mil, and 10 drops tea tree oil, 1 mil jojoba oil. Currently using 2x daily. My hair is starting to grow back again. I am also using minoxidil foam and ketoconazole cream daily. I find I cannot go higher than about 4-5% green tea/egcg 2x daily, otherwise it causes folliculitis / allergic reaction as it did before. Folliculitis is something to be careful of, as it can spread rapidly. My theory is that the keratinocytes that have been stimulated to multiply are not moving up the follicle canal properly and thus trigger an infection which then leads to an immune / allergic response. But, green tea/egcg seems to be a potent stimulator of hair growth at higher concentrations. Most users have used very low concentrations. There is some solid science behind green tea / egcg (as you have pointed out) and rosemary extract (strong androgen inhibition and immune modulating factors). Both are also water / alcohol soluble, and penetrate the skin easily. I am also adding oleuropein as per your research. I would caution users to be careful about adding too many ingredients. Too many substances can trigger an immune / allergic response on the scalp. Once you trigger an immune allergic response, you will have to stop using everything for a rather long period of time (months or longer) to let the immune system back off / reset. I wouldn't underestimate this possibility.

I realize my testimony has to be taken with a grain of salt, considering multiple factors ... i.e. my age, alopecia areata + mpb, transplant, no pics, etc. So, I'm just throwing it out there. I will keep an update on my progress from time to time. I am encouraged by the regrowth that is restarting again, and by the potential of oleuropein being added to the mix. Here is a link to the rosemary extract research.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22517595