adipose-derived stem cell protein extract

[Swooping]

Granted, that study suggested they are pretty useless in topical treatments, which I can confirm myself too.
Whenever I was referring to GF's though, I meant injection. Although it looks like a topical, the AAPE product I should think probably needs to be injected too.

That aside, maybe another way around this is to go to a lab directly and ask them to culture your own adipose tissue, as that's what the clinic have suggested they would have to do anyway.
I was quoted CHF4000, but bear in mind that it's again only the protein extracts which I am allowed to use under EU law, not the cultured stem cells themselves.

Understand.. Ill try to call prostemics myself today or tommorow. Let's see if we can dig up more information.

[moleular]

Granted, that study suggested they are pretty useless in topical treatments, which I can confirm myself too.
Whenever I was referring to GF's though, I meant injection. Although it looks like a topical, the AAPE product I should think probably needs to be injected too.

That aside, maybe another way around this is to go to a lab directly and ask them to culture your own adipose tissue, as that's what the clinic have suggested they would have to do anyway.
I was quoted CHF4000, but bear in mind that it's again only the protein extracts which I am allowed to use under EU law, not the cultured stem cells themselves.

[Swooping]

Swooping, recombinant proteins produced through viruses or bacteria do work for therapeutic purposes.
If they didn't, then life science companies wouldn't sell them in their thousands to scientist around the world.
It is these recombinant proteins and growth factors which are used in research to help model real world purposes.
Recombinant Human growth hormone for example is widely sold on the black market for use in bodybuilding.

Explained pretty well here why they are inferior with links to studies.;

http://www.gvi.com.mx/Skinmedica/Publicacion%20JDD%20sobre%20Factores%20de%20Crecimiento%20Humano%20Mayo%202009.pdf

[Swooping]

Swooping, recombinant proteins produced through viruses or bacteria do work for therapeutic purposes.
If they didn't, then life science companies wouldn't sell them in their thousands to scientist around the world.
It is these recombinant proteins and growth factors which are used in research to help model real world purposes.
Recombinant Human growth hormone for example is widely sold on the black market for use in bodybuilding.

I know but trust me on this. This isn't the only forum, there are guys who have done this ages ago including recombinant human wnt7a, SHH, bFGF, KGF, SOD etc, just simply didn't work. Just don't do them you are wasting your money man (e.coli derived ones).

One of the most challenging problems with growth factors and cytokines, or wound-healing peptides, is their stability. Without a stability system, growth factors will fall apart in the bottle or on the skin. Exoskeletons are a breakthrough, but there are other stabilized growth factors on the market. Most growth factors made individually are created by programming Escherichia coli (E. coli) bacteria. This process can match the amino acids, creating a bioidentical version, but it cannot mimic the three-dimensionality of human cell-derived growth factors. It is this special shape that makes growth factors from stem cells and fibroblasts much more stable and active in the skin.

Think it had to do with this indeed.. will dig it up later

[moleular]

Alias, it's up to you. If money is no object and then it would be worth a try.

[moleular]

Swooping, recombinant proteins produced through viruses or bacteria do work for therapeutic purposes.
If they didn't, then life science companies wouldn't sell them in their thousands to scientist around the world.
It is these recombinant proteins and growth factors which are used in research to help model real world purposes.
Recombinant Human growth hormone for example is widely sold on the black market for use in bodybuilding.

[Alias123]

This is the Answer i got from the clinic, What do you think? should i try it out? i dont live far away and could be able to do it within 3 weeks, based on waiting time etc.
And dont just say yes i should do it so that i can act like a test subject, do you actually think its in any way worth spending any money on? is it a process that could actually have some effect?


the hair growth therapy is done by removing some fat from Your body, extracting stemcells, mixing them with specific growth factors and injecting them into the scalp. Therapy is repeated 1 - 2 times, costs are from EUR 5000,--/ treatment, small treatments/refreshing treatments are from EUR 3500,--.

Therapy works satisfyingly on thinning hair on areas not completely depelted of hair follicles. Sessions should be repeated for best results.

Regular consultation fees are based on a regular patient status. We also offer VIP-status on request. Our internationally famous VIP-Firstclass consultations/treatment offers the best available service according to Your individual convenience on any day/time you prefer with nobody else in the waiting room and no waiting time. Fees for VIP consultation from EUR 300,--, fees for VIP treatments on request.

[hgs1989]

You misunderstood me. You gave a link to a company in korea. As I said they are derived from Escherichia coli and not from human tissue. The ones from Escherichia coli don't work because they supposedly don't undergo the same biological passages. If those from e.coli would work we wouldn't be sitting here mate. Kane even sold them on his webshop.

sorry about that. kinda took me time to write that long reply lol.

[Swooping]

explain why Histogen works then. SHH and wnts work. problem is they are carcinogenic. the others I guess are not known to be carcinogenic or not but wnts and SHH are known to be so. curis cancelled there SHH program for hair because of high toxicity levels in mice.
Why wouldn't growth factors work? everything in our body is a result of a cellular signaling. baldness is a result of the cell sensitivity to DHT(which has a receptor on the cell) which will make the cells express TGF beta 1 ( a growth factor) which will make the cells die. of course other stuff genes and sginals are also involve like PGD2. a paper I read by Cotseralis before he mentioned that therapeutic approaches for male pattern baldness could be in inhibiting TGF beta 1 and FGF 5 causes the follcile to go in to catagen phase) and then signal the cells using fgf1 , fgf2, fgf7(kgf). the other growth factors like vegf is important for angiogenesis the result a larger follicle and the larger the follicle the the longer your hair. the list goes on and on. the science behind GF is solid.the problem is we don't know if these GF can cause cancer or not. if you have a tumor you can inhibit vegf to prevent blood vessels from developing and killing it (future treatment approach of cancer) imagine if there is a small tumor and you injected vegf the tumor will develop faster. igf 1 is taken by athletes and it works wonder in muscle growth and injury recovery. in fact it used to be banned as a performance enhancing drug. you can read all over the internet about GF. the next generation of treatments for many genetic diseases will be in cellular signaling. who knows maybe they van even signal viruses to die in the future. it is where the current R&D is heading.I wonder how you came up with the conclusion that they don't work. just because a company cancelled it is program doesn't mean it didn't work. it means it is not feasible to pursue due to financial reasons or unwanted health complications.

You misunderstood me. You gave a link to a company in korea. As I said they are derived from Escherichia coli and not from human tissue. The ones from Escherichia coli don't work because they supposedly don't undergo the same biological passages. If those from e.coli would work we wouldn't be sitting here mate. Kane even sold them on his webshop.

[hgs1989]

These growth factors you are talking about are from e.coli they are nothing new and don't work at all. People have even tried SHH, WNT7A, NOGGIN etc didn't work.

For example a company which offers various growth factors lyophilized and in a cosmetic formulation;

http://www.cosmo-bio.com/bbs/board.p...able=makeup_02

explain why Histogen works then. SHH and wnts work. problem is they are carcinogenic. the others I guess are not known to be carcinogenic or not but wnts and SHH are known to be so. curis cancelled there SHH program for hair because of high toxicity levels in mice.
Why wouldn't growth factors work? everything in our body is a result of a cellular signaling. baldness is a result of the cell sensitivity to DHT(which has a receptor on the cell) which will make the cells express TGF beta 1 ( a growth factor) which will make the cells die. of course other stuff genes and sginals are also involve like PGD2. a paper I read by Cotseralis before he mentioned that therapeutic approaches for male pattern baldness could be in inhibiting TGF beta 1 and FGF 5 causes the follcile to go in to catagen phase) and then signal the cells using fgf1 , fgf2, fgf7(kgf). the other growth factors like vegf is important for angiogenesis the result a larger follicle and the larger the follicle the the longer your hair. the list goes on and on. the science behind GF is solid.the problem is we don't know if these GF can cause cancer or not. if you have a tumor you can inhibit vegf to prevent blood vessels from developing and killing it (future treatment approach of cancer) imagine if there is a small tumor and you injected vegf the tumor will develop faster. igf 1 is taken by athletes and it works wonder in muscle growth and injury recovery. in fact it used to be banned as a performance enhancing drug. you can read all over the internet about GF. the next generation of treatments for many genetic diseases will be in cellular signaling. who knows maybe they van even signal viruses to die in the future. it is where the current R&D is heading.I wonder how you came up with the conclusion that they don't work. just because a company cancelled it is program doesn't mean it didn't work. it means it is not feasible to pursue due to financial reasons or unwanted health complications.

[Swooping]

actually AAPE is what this thread is about. it is called adipose derived stem cells protein extract. the proteins are the growth factors. yes they are expensive but you don't need too much to trigger a cellular signal. but you need the signal to be continuous hence repeated doses are necessary.

on a different note, check this out guys http://www.skinmedic.com.my/anti-hair-loss-mechanism

looks like the Koreans are already utilizing the power of growth factors for hair. if the products are legit we already have a histogen,

These growth factors you are talking about are from e.coli they are nothing new and don't work at all and are already produced in many cosmetic formulations. People have even tried SHH, WNT7A, NOGGIN etc didn't work.

For example a company which offers various growth factors lyophilized and in a cosmetic formulation;

http://www.cosmo-bio.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=makeup_02

But yeah we need this AAPE, it's really the same as histogen only that histogen uses dermal fibroblasts instead of adipose tissue.

[hgs1989]

The ADSC method which started this thread

actually AAPE is what this thread is about. it is called adipose derived stem cells protein extract. the proteins are the growth factors. yes they are expensive but you don't need too much to trigger a cellular signal. but you need the signal to be continuous hence repeated doses are necessary.

on a different note, check this out guys http://www.skinmedic.com.my/anti-hair-loss-mechanism

looks like the Koreans are already utilizing the power of growth factors for hair. if the products are legit we already have a histogen,

[Swooping]

I doubt that it could be bought much cheaper from Prostemics themselves. This is what makes me a little uncertain about yms offering it for $1000.
It's typically very expensive to buy growth factors. For example, buying just one growth factor like FGF9 is in the region of $250, and that's only for 20 µg (micrograms).
It should be noted that AAPE isn't quite the same as ADSC.
AAPE is solely the proteins / growth factors which are extracted, probably from a cultured medium containing the stem cells. It is the stem cells which secrete these growth factors. Stem cells are not contained in AAPE.
The ADSC method which started this thread, is a method by which both the stem cells and their respective secreted growth factors are used.
And the difference between the aforementioned and adipose derived stem cells used by Dr Heinrich, is that the stem cells from adipose tissue (your own fat) haven't (and can't by EU law) be cultured.

All of that aside, I really wish people would get behind this method on this forum (particularly those frequently browsing cutting edge treatments), because this is actually a reality now, and can be effective.

I propose community funding to work with Dr Heinrich for example (although it doesn't have to be [and I have no affiliations with his clinic]), and getting something set up whereby we can bring down the price of such treatments.

You all know that the other treatments discussed in this section are at least 2 years away from being commercial, so why not dedicate some proper efforts to something which is doable now.
Community funding for ADSC could almost help to subsidise the treatments of yourself and others.

Admittedly, the better results are from Fukuoka's research whereby he cultured the cells in hypoxic conditions, but with enough money backing it, there's no reason we can't gradually bring that around.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of playing the waiting game, and I'm not prepared to anymore.

I welcome your thoughts on it, but please don't let it degrade into name calling and veering off at wild tangents.

Yes i know, most of them are derived from e.coli and they don't work though. I think we should have the ones which are cultured under hypoxic conditions as growth factor secretion will get way bigger because of that. I doubt too that prostemics will offer them for way cheaper than $1000, but we'll see.

Its main components of prostemics AAPE;

include PDGF (44.41 ± 2.56 pg/mL), bFGF (131.35
± 30.31 pg/mL), KGF (86.28 ± 20.33 pg/mL), TGF-β1
(103.33 ± 1.70 pg/mL), HGF (670.94 ± 86.92 pg/mL),
VEGF (809.53 ± 95.98 pg/mL), collagen (921.47 ±
49.65 pg/mL), fi bronectin (1466.48 ± 460.21 pg/mL),
and SOD in 5 mL saline solution

This is picogram, the dosages are still pretty low. Regranex a foot ulcer creme carries like 100ug/gram of PDGF-AA, heavily overdosed.

2 years? Damn your positive, to be honest i would expect nothing close in 5 years even. Follica is nowhere with their dermabrasion + lithium, Histogen didn't meet expectations and minoxidil still outperforms it heavily, their ROI isn't probably going worth it. Perhaps replicel, that's it. Furthermore the only thing i see maybe working is this b-catenin small molecule agonist, but I doubt it as there are more negative loops in the WNT pathway.

Seems like this is really the only thing realistically worth it for the coming years. I don't think that it will be better than any anti androgen + minox therapy, but as it works by stimulating various paracrine signalling factors it is a multi-action treatment just like minoxidil and that is what we need.

Did you get any more information from this swiss lab moleular?

[moleular]

I doubt that it could be bought much cheaper from Prostemics themselves. This is what makes me a little uncertain about yms offering it for $1000.
It's typically very expensive to buy growth factors. For example, buying just one growth factor like FGF9 is in the region of $250, and that's only for 20 µg (micrograms).
It should be noted that AAPE isn't quite the same as ADSC.
AAPE is solely the proteins / growth factors which are extracted, probably from a cultured medium containing the stem cells. It is the stem cells which secrete these growth factors. Stem cells are not contained in AAPE.
The ADSC method which started this thread, is a method by which both the stem cells and their respective secreted growth factors are used.
And the difference between the aforementioned and adipose derived stem cells used by Dr Heinrich, is that the stem cells from adipose tissue (your own fat) haven't (and can't by EU law) be cultured.

All of that aside, I really wish people would get behind this method on this forum (particularly those frequently browsing cutting edge treatments), because this is actually a reality now, and can be effective.

I propose community funding to work with Dr Heinrich for example (although it doesn't have to be [and I have no affiliations with his clinic]), and getting something set up whereby we can bring down the price of such treatments.

You all know that the other treatments discussed in this section are at least 2 years away from being commercial, so why not dedicate some proper efforts to something which is doable now.
Community funding for ADSC could almost help to subsidise the treatments of yourself and others.

Admittedly, the better results are from Fukuoka's research whereby he cultured the cells in hypoxic conditions, but with enough money backing it, there's no reason we can't gradually bring that around.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of playing the waiting game, and I'm not prepared to anymore.

I welcome your thoughts on it, but please don't let it degrade into name calling and veering off at wild tangents.

[Swooping]

One method of prostemics is described as;

Human subcutaneous adipose tissues were obtained from 23 healthy women with informed consents as approved by the institutional review boards by medical liposuction. The age distribution of the patients ranged from 26 to 51 years, with a mean of 36.7 years and about 67 kg. The adipose tissues were exposed to collagenase (final 0.075% type II collagenase, Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO, USA) for 30 min at culture temperature, followed by centrifugation at 400 g for 10 min, washed and resuspended in PBS. The stromal cell fraction was filtered through a 70 μm cell strainer (BD Biosciences, San Jose, CA, USA). Using Histopaque-1077 (Sigma-Aldrich, St. Louis, MO, USA), ADSCs were isolated from the filtrate, then cultured at 37 °C, 5% CO2 in DMEM containing 10% FBS. Characteristic expressions of stem cell-related surface markers were confirmed by flow cytometry [9,10]. ADSCs expressed CD73, CD90 and CD105, and were lacking in CD34 and CD49d. Adipogenic, osteogenic, and chondrogenic differentiation was also checked by the conventional method [43,44]. After the isolation of ADSC from patients, cells were pooled. ADSCs were cultured and expanded in normal control medium, and used for the experiments at passages 4. Cells were finally frozen in aliquots using CellFreezerTM (Genenmed, Seoul, Korea) for the future. To produce a ADSC-CM (AAPETM), a frozen vial containing 1 × 106 cells were launched onto culture medium containing 10% FBS. After repeating subcultures to reach 5 × 108 cells, the expanded ADSCs were introduced into CellFactoryTM CF10 (Nunc, Rochester, NY, USA) in DMEM/F12 serum-free medium (Welgene, Taegu, Korea). Cultures were conducted under a hypoxia by providing 2% O2 using N2 gas supply in a humidified multichannel incubator during 2 weeks. The conditioned media were collected and micro-filtered, followed by quantitated total protein production. Finally, for fresh use, 4 mL vials containing equal protein concentration were freeze-dried as a single lot sample preparation of AAPE (Prostemics Research Institute, Sungnam, Korea) for this study.

We need those I am pretty sure as seen in the movie from 2:21 to 2.35;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrz3Rp4JwDM#t=154

Are they these;

http://www.prostemics.com/magazine/aape.php

I guess so... Like someone said in this topic the ones for $1000.. Probably way cheaper if directly bought from prostemics though.