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I'm not exactly saying they are a scam, just that they're marketing ploy has some flaws. And these flaws are easily picked out by those that take a step back and inspect what is on the table with no bias. The clear conclusion is to be a bit cautious, that's all I'm saying. They have accomplished what they set out to do however which is get ppl to talk about their product. If vraf is in on the marketing then him specifically saying he is in no way a representative or spokesperson for pillogics seems sketchy. I'm not exactly buying the whole thing about not sharing info because someone will steal it either. They have patents. It is just weird how histogen and replicel can share their procedures (atleast better than piloxl can) and their products are still a couple years away. If they want ppl to be actually excited they should get a peer reviewed journal published with those same results (which I hear they're working on) but until they do, I recommend everybody stays cautious). With that said if this is the real deal then we'll find out soon enough.
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-------------------------------------He brought up some very good points, which I brought up too. Regardless of whether they're scammers or not, at least there are several clear red flags here. That whole story of a pilogics representative going to a hairdresser with an album full of result photo's for a product that's still in prototype stage, it just makes no sense. And the sole fact of a researcher joining a forum, that's a red flag by itself in my opinion, and even more so if he doesn't want to talk about how it works, but only about how good the product is.
Of course, it doesn't mean they're not for real, there might actually be something here and I'll refrain from posting criticism on SAGA, where Yoram posts, I'll post it here instead
Of course I also hope it's for real, let that be clear and there's no sign of any fraudulent behaviour at this point at all.
Ok , I got what you mean Arashi , yeah I agree the hairdresser idea looks
a little wired , You know what? Since we are really lose our hopes after 12
years which FDA did not approve any product so maybe we want to still keep our hopes high!! But I understand there should be different view points .
I also have read many posts from you before too. Is you're name Arash? Are you persian? just curious man !Comment
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It's current version doesn't sound much like dermarolling-- but I guess works off of the same principles. There is apparently no wounding happening in the traditional sense.
@Arashi,
Desmond has a good post explaining how it is not uncommon, and really the norm, for (real) researchers to keep their research very private up until it's published-- for both patent reasons, business reasons, and efficacy reasons.
So it's not strange, and maybe even a good sign, that the doctor isn't divulging too much just yet. I say this because it may indicate he is real, and I don't think he's trying to hide it as he has indicated that he will be submitting an article to a peer-reviewed journal shortly (when's the last time a snake oil salesmen did this?)
That being said, the hair salon thing is somewhat strange, but not completely unimaginable.
I just can't imagine these guys spent 5 years and $5M+ patenting and making multiple prototypes (of which are given to trialists for free) all to be running a snake oil sale..... that just seems like a conspiracy theory when considered in the face of all the time and money being invested
Can Snake oil be 120% ruled out as of today? No. But in my mind it seems unlikely it's a snake oil-- at this point, I'm more interested in the efficacy.Comment
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Is there a source for that 5 million figure for patenting? I see that figure being thrown around but I never saw that as a reasonable figure. According to this it's no where near as much and I'm inclined to beleive it's more in the ball park of a couple thousand just because I know of individuals with parents who could no way afford to patent anything if it cost a couple mill lmao. I'm mostly asking out of curiosity, I'm not a lawyer so maybe someone can enlighten me.
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The $5M figure is what I was throwing around for the total project... they've given away almost 300 of these things at a 2k+ cost to them, plus hiring a team, plus filing multiple patents (way more expensive than on your link, especially for the number of claims they've filed and the complexity of the invention-- first hand experience with a single patent of less complexity costing $20K and still running), plus some money left over to give them a runway to make it to launch, plus some cash to launch maybe.
add all those investments with the time investment (beginning 6 years ago)
and you've got mounting evidence that this isn't snake oil.
AGAIN, this is all we have to go off of. I think we should stop calling this a scam until we know more. Nobody is calling it the end-all yet, but things look and sound interesting so far.
I doubt that yoram appreciates random anonymous posters coming on here and calling him and his efforts a "obvious scam" with no real basis--- and then the same posters wonder why they've been secretive.Comment
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Thanks for clearing that up. And I'm by no means claiming this is obvious sake oil. I'm just concerned of the efficacy and the red flags their marketing seems to raise. And do u happen to be part of the forums where Yoram posts? You sure do happen to know a lot about it and I trust you will share the progress as it comes along
? I really hope with the new prototype they have more results with the temporal hair loss. They're prototype 2 seemed to tackle mostly crown and the diffused areas :/
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I don't have time to be updating you guys with new info, and to be verifying my or pilox's claims.
I dont work for pilox. and I dont work for kiwi.
so unfortunately you guys are going to have to do your own homework here on out.Comment
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I must have missed that. What peer-reviewed journal will he publish in ? And what's it about, is it an article about the science behind it ? Or is it publication of the trial results ? And when will this happen ?
Remember how Dr Gho published an article, but I still don't understand why they even published it, since it's not even scientific, since nobody could replicate it (so by definition not scientific).
I for one am not calling Yoram a scammer. There might be something real. But the feeling that it's just another dr Nigam is slowly creeping up on me. Look at those pictures vraf posted yesterday, they're screenshots of original pictures: recompressed, low resolution, wrong lighting. Why would Yoram want to have such bad pictures published ? Why not just publish the original ones ? If he's trying to prove his method works, he clearly doesn't understand how to prove things ... On the other hand, if he's trying to cheat on us, he does exactly what he should do.
Again, I'm not calling him a cheater/scammer. But things add up less and less ...Comment
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It's amazing how scams come and go and the same people fall again by using the same logical fallacies
Like yourself, I'm not calling him a scammer (yet) but it's sad to see so much naive optimism and very little critical thinking. You would think that taking part in the full cycle of 2-3 scams in the last year some people would learn to keep themselves skepticComment
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If he's a scammer, why not give him a old fashion mob with pitchforks and torches?
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I really hope this isn't a scam but if it is a scam then it is important they know NOW that they will NOT make a profit.
TRX2 is viewed by many as being a scam. The company who make TRX2 is called Oxford Biolabs. If you do a company background search on Oxford Biolabs you can see that they have made a loss of £9000 in the last year
I think a lot of snake oil companies seem to think they will make millions. The fact is if your product does not work then you will be caught out by users on the hairloss forums and word will get around that your product does not work. After these companies have paid for their patents, website design costs, marketing costs, delivery costs etc then they will make a loss if their product doesn't work.
I hope this is a lesson for all these b.s. companies who think they are going to make millions selling a fake hairloss product. Be warned, if your product doesn't work then you will not make a profit so give up now and stop trying to fool us.Comment
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