S-equol again

[kmit028]

Agreed. I don't mind putting out 3500 a year if it delivers result. If I were to be putting that huge amount of money, I want to make sure that it is well worth it with quantified data to track its progress instead of just eyeballing it.

@PinotQ

Would you be able to take a DHT blood test and share the results with us?

[thechamp]

The sides I got with fin was weight gain, so does s equol work the same I think weight gain is cause from blacking dht and tetosterone turning in to estrogen does any body know if this will have the same effect ?

[PinotQ]

@PinotQ

Would you be able to take a DHT blood test and share the results with us?

Sorry, that is not something I plan on doing. If you really wanted to know, you could take a DHT blood test and then take equol for a week and take another blood test. If it didn't work, you would only be out $50 to $100 worth of equol depending on your weight and the dosage you are trying. But from the research I have read, I believe the fact that equol binds to DHT is not in question. There are many studies but here are a few that address the issue: http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/ & http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedres...&npos=21&prt=3 For more studies, especially studies done on the effects of equol in humans, take a look at Nature Made's website on the research studies tab here: http://www.naturalequol.com/research.html One of the studies you will see gives a great summary, not only of equol's ability to bind DT but of the many other in-vivo effects of equol and how it was the most potent anti-oxidant tested. Interestingly, this study has a date of 2010 and they suggest that the recently found/discovered ability to synthesize bulk quantities of equol (equol was first discovered in 1932) would accelerate further detailed studies. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884334/ So for me, the real question is dosage. I am experimenting at the high end of the dosage level as referred to in the patent, the owner's of which are the primary authors of many of the studies you will find dating back years.

Also to thechamp: One thing you will see in the studies is a finding that equol does not alter circulating sex hormones, at least the ones they tested. For example, see: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php where they say:

Levels of six hormones remained in the normal range and did not significantly differ between men receiving a placebo (12 men) or one of two daily doses of SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol, 10 milligrams (mg) (17 men) or 30 mg (17 men) for 12 weeks. Study investigators specifically measured total testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), FreeT3 (a form of triiodothyronine) and FreeT4 (a form of thyroxine).

Note that the 2 hormones you are concerned about, testosterone and estradiol (estrogen) remain unchanged.

[bananana]

pinotQ, thanks with your answers. I'll be following your path soon.
A question more general: lets say we remove DHT out of the equation, wont our follicles have decent nutrients flow to them again?
Wont that do a bit more than just "maintaining"?

[cthulhu2]

Sorry, that is not something I plan on doing. If you really wanted to know, you could take a DHT blood test and then take equol for a week and take another blood test. If it didn't work, you would only be out $50 to $100 worth of equol depending on your weight and the dosage you are trying. But from the research I have read, I believe the fact that equol binds to DHT is not in question. There are many studies but here are a few that address the issue: http://www.rbej.com/content/9/1/4/ & http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedres...&npos=21&prt=3 For more studies, especially studies done on the effects of equol in humans, take a look at Nature Made's website on the research studies tab here: http://www.naturalequol.com/research.html One of the studies you will see gives a great summary, not only of equol's ability to bind DT but of the many other in-vivo effects of equol and how it was the most potent anti-oxidant tested. Interestingly, this study has a date of 2010 and they suggest that the recently found/discovered ability to synthesize bulk quantities of equol (equol was first discovered in 1932) would accelerate further detailed studies. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884334/ So for me, the real question is dosage. I am experimenting at the high end of the dosage level as referred to in the patent, the owner's of which are the primary authors of many of the studies you will find dating back years.

Also to thechamp: One thing you will see in the studies is a finding that equol does not alter circulating sex hormones, at least the ones they tested. For example, see: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-hsa043010.php where they say:

Levels of six hormones remained in the normal range and did not significantly differ between men receiving a placebo (12 men) or one of two daily doses of SE5-OH containing Natural S-equol, 10 milligrams (mg) (17 men) or 30 mg (17 men) for 12 weeks. Study investigators specifically measured total testosterone, free testosterone, estradiol, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), FreeT3 (a form of triiodothyronine) and FreeT4 (a form of thyroxine).

Note that the 2 hormones you are concerned about, testosterone and estradiol (estrogen) remain unchanged.

My issue with these studies is that they were all done in either a petri dish or in mice. Are there any studies done on humans that measure the amount of dht reduction in serum?

[Borealis]

So can someone summarise for me, apologies if it's glaringly obvious, what S-equol's primary mechanism in fighting hair loss actually is? Is it a DHT receptor antagonist like CB, or a 5AR inhibitor like Finasteride or something else? Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, I did try and have a look around the internet.

[cthulhu2]

So can someone summarise for me, apologies if it's glaringly obvious, what S-equol's primary mechanism in fighting hair loss actually is? Is it a DHT receptor antagonist like CB, or a 5AR inhibitor like Finasteride or something else? Sorry if I've missed it somewhere, I did try and have a look around the internet.

Neither, it binds to dht making it inactive. What this means is dht wont bind to the androgen receptor but will still exist in thr blood stream. The appeal of equol is tgat it doesn't inhibit 5 alpha reductase.

[PinotQ]

pinotQ, thanks with your answers. I'll be following your path soon.
A question more general: lets say we remove DHT out of the equation, wont our follicles have decent nutrients flow to them again?
Wont that do a bit more than just "maintaining"?

I would think s-equol would do a bit more than maintain for 2 reasons: 1) If it theoretically eliminates most all DHT as opposed to the approximately 70 % seen with finasteride, you might expect at least as good of a bounce back as seen with some finasteride users; and 2) Equol also attaches to the estrogen receptor B which is found throughout the scalp and on the follicles. It is thought that this estrogen effect positively influences hair growth. Of course, follicles damaged beyond a certain point would not likely see any benefit.

[PinotQ]

My issue with these studies is that they were all done in either a petri dish or in mice. Are there any studies done on humans that measure the amount of dht reduction in serum?

In study after study, Lund and Setchell, 2 of the preeminent researchers of equol state that equol is a potent antagonist of and binds to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in vivo. They make this statement in studies involving humans yet it is not clear exactly how that conclusion is drawn, whether from human blood samples or prior studies not involving humans. Nonetheless, here is at least one study: http://file.scirp.org/Html/1-1980115_42404.htm "The results of this study showed a low dose of equol positively improved moderate to severe BPH symptoms according to the IPSS indices. In moderately symptomatic men (n = 10) 5 out of 7 of the IPSS parameters significantly improved by 4 weeks of equol treatment (see Figure 5). In severely symptomatic men (n = 8) all 7 of the IPSS parameters significantly improved with 4 weeks of equol treatment (see Figure 6). There were no significant changes in androgen levels, general blood chemistries or cardiac and hepatic function parameters. However, 5α-DHT levels declined by 21% in severely symptomatic men (from baseline vs. 4 week values)."

[PinotQ]

cthulhu2, Here is another study that was referred to in the Lund/Setchell patent here: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071

In Men and Women, Serum 5α-DHT Levels Before and after Treatment with Non-Racemic Equol

[0245]In a pilot study involving 4 men (ages 50 to 59 years old) and 2 postmenopausal women (ages 60 to 62), baseline levels of serum 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) were determined by ELISA in triplicate. After 7 days of oral dosing with 3 mg of non-racemic equol per day, 5α-DHT levels were again determined.

TABLE-US-00013 TABLE 13 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning oral dosing (two to four dose on the 7th day of hours after the 1st morning MEN treatment dose) Subject A 692 + 10 pg/ml 600 + 13 pg/ml* Subject B 724 + 18 pg/ml 612 + 18 pg/ml* Subject C 658 + 23 pg/ml 534 + 16 pg/ml* Subject D 747 + 27 pg/ml 596 + 28 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values

TABLE-US-00014 TABLE 14 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning dose oral dosing (two to four hours WOMEN on the 7th day of treatment after the 1st morning dose) Subject E 221 + 5 pg/ml 170 + 6 pg/ml* Subject F 265 + 14 pg/ml 193 + 20 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values

[0246]This studies demonstrated that oral consumption of equol significantly decreased serum 5α-DHT levels in men (by approximately 17%) and in women (by approximately 26%).

[baldymcgee]

cthulhu2, Here is another study that was referred to in the Lund/Setchell patent here: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071

In Men and Women, Serum 5α-DHT Levels Before and after Treatment with Non-Racemic Equol

[0245]In a pilot study involving 4 men (ages 50 to 59 years old) and 2 postmenopausal women (ages 60 to 62), baseline levels of serum 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) were determined by ELISA in triplicate. After 7 days of oral dosing with 3 mg of non-racemic equol per day, 5α-DHT levels were again determined.

TABLE-US-00013 TABLE 13 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning oral dosing (two to four dose on the 7th day of hours after the 1st morning MEN treatment dose) Subject A 692 + 10 pg/ml 600 + 13 pg/ml* Subject B 724 + 18 pg/ml 612 + 18 pg/ml* Subject C 658 + 23 pg/ml 534 + 16 pg/ml* Subject D 747 + 27 pg/ml 596 + 28 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values

TABLE-US-00014 TABLE 14 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning dose oral dosing (two to four hours WOMEN on the 7th day of treatment after the 1st morning dose) Subject E 221 + 5 pg/ml 170 + 6 pg/ml* Subject F 265 + 14 pg/ml 193 + 20 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values

[0246]This studies demonstrated that oral consumption of equol significantly decreased serum 5α-DHT levels in men (by approximately 17%) and in women (by approximately 26%).

These results are great, but why is no one selling S-Equol supplements? Argh.

We need someone to set up a kickstarter campaign for this.

[cthulhu2]

cthulhu2, Here is another study that was referred to in the Lund/Setchell patent here: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071

In Men and Women, Serum 5α-DHT Levels Before and after Treatment with Non-Racemic Equol

[0245]In a pilot study involving 4 men (ages 50 to 59 years old) and 2 postmenopausal women (ages 60 to 62), baseline levels of serum 5α-dihydrotestosterone (5α-DHT) were determined by ELISA in triplicate. After 7 days of oral dosing with 3 mg of non-racemic equol per day, 5α-DHT levels were again determined.

TABLE-US-00013 TABLE 13 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning oral dosing (two to four dose on the 7th day of hours after the 1st morning MEN treatment dose) Subject A 692 + 10 pg/ml 600 + 13 pg/ml* Subject B 724 + 18 pg/ml 612 + 18 pg/ml* Subject C 658 + 23 pg/ml 534 + 16 pg/ml* Subject D 747 + 27 pg/ml 596 + 28 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values

TABLE-US-00014 TABLE 14 Baseline: 5α-DHT levels 5α-DHT levels on day 7 of before the 1st morning dose oral dosing (two to four hours WOMEN on the 7th day of treatment after the 1st morning dose) Subject E 221 + 5 pg/ml 170 + 6 pg/ml* Subject F 265 + 14 pg/ml 193 + 20 pg/ml* *= significant decrease compared to baseline values

[0246]This studies demonstrated that oral consumption of equol significantly decreased serum 5α-DHT levels in men (by approximately 17%) and in women (by approximately 26%).

Thanks Pinot, this was exactly what I was looking for. I guess there is no denying that equol works in men. That is a pretty significant drop in DHT from such a small dose. Combined with finasteride, this could provide some serious benefit.

[NeedHairASAP]

I'm having trouble finding where this is available.. thread is too long.

So nature's made isn't out yet?

just equolibrium from

http://herbal-store.natural-remedies-pro.com/products/equolibrium-60-capsules?utm_source=googlepla&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CP351tyXsr8CFdBi7AodIAIAbg

?

[cthulhu2]

I'm having trouble finding where this is available.. thread is too long.

So nature's made isn't out yet?

just equolibrium from

http://herbal-store.natural-remedies-pro.com/products/equolibrium-60-capsules?utm_source=googlepla&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CP351tyXsr8CFdBi7AodIAIAbg

?

Nature Made had some issues with quality control according to Pinot. I emailed them last year and they said they planned on manufacturing near the end of 2013, so hopefully not much longer. I think NS's product is legit though since they are a large company, however NatureMade's stuff is likely to be cheaper.

[PinotQ]

I'm having trouble finding where this is available.. thread is too long.

So nature's made isn't out yet?

just equolibrium from

http://herbal-store.natural-remedies-pro.com/products/equolibrium-60-capsules?utm_source=googlepla&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CP351tyXsr8CFdBi7AodIAIAbg

?

Yes Nature's Sunshine is the only version currently available. Here is a link to the Equolibrium page:

http://www.naturessunshine.com/us/general/search?q=Equolibrium%E2%84%A2%20(60%20capsules