S-equol again

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  • Conpecia
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2011
    • 911

    #16
    Originally posted by PinotQ
    Sometime last year, someone posted on TBT that a representative from Pharmavite told them that release of their S-Equol product was scheduled for the second quarter of 2013. I have emailed various contacts at Pharmavite and Nature Made but they have not responded to confirm their release date. I have done quite a bit of research on S-Equol as I believe it has a high probability of shutting down the degradation caused by DHT. The dose being used by Pharmavite in their consumer trials is 10 MG per day split 5 mg in the am and 5 mg in the pm. Based on research data from some of the clinical trials, I believe it would take 40 to 50 mg to shut down DHT. I can probably find the report if anyone is interested. Based on the half life of S-Equol in the body (you can read the details on Pharmavites website), it would appear that the optimum dosage might occur by taking the product 3 times per day rather than 2. I would also note that safety concerns with S-Equol should be minimal as it occurs naturally in about 30% of the overall population. In the course of consumer and clinical trials, they also uncovered reason to believe that S-Equol helps reduce Metabolic Syndrome (associated with heart disease and diabetes) and it helps reduce "crows feet", possibly related to the reduction of androgenic activity in the skin.
    Interesting. Please keep us updated on this. Also, have you researched Keratene? What are your thoughts on it?

    Comment

    • The Natural
      Junior Member
      • Nov 2011
      • 10

      #17
      Differences between equol products (from a post at *** forum):

      "...To clear up some of the discussion about Proequol and equol supplements:

      Any equol supplement, such as Pharmavite, would be unlikely to be potent enough to have a sufficient levels of equol, in vivo, to fully mitigate DHT. Through our years of studies, we have determined that 100 ng/ml of unbound equol in blood plasma is the minimum level needed to mitigate DHT. By our estimates (based on urine levels of equol), Pharmavite may only provide 1/12th of those blood levels because not all of the equol contained in the capsule/tablet will be fully absorbed into the bloodstream. Additionally, their product is marketed towards menopausal woman, and the blood levels required there are likely not as high as they are for mitigating DHT.

      The moral here is that metabolizing equol in the intestines is the most effective way to produce and more importantly, absorb equol into the body. In that respect, any supplement containing synthesized equol cannot compete with Proequol's equol output.

      Finally, some of the results of our studies cannot be made public because Proequol is being marketed as a nutritional supplement. Only pharmaceuticals can make direct effectiveness claims. However, Proequol is not a pharmaceutical and we must market the product within legal limits.

      Thank you,
      Black Bear Naturals, LLC"

      Comment

      • custards
        Junior Member
        • Sep 2012
        • 29

        #18
        It's in the first post too

        It sounds good but they need to show at least the results they're allowed to publish. Keratene has done well by giving people solid numbers, even if we don't know the end-result on hair maintenance.

        Comment

        • The Natural
          Junior Member
          • Nov 2011
          • 10

          #19
          Originally posted by custards
          It's in the first post too

          It sounds good but they need to show at least the results they're allowed to publish. Keratene has done well by giving people solid numbers, even if we don't know the end-result on hair maintenance.
          I agree with you.

          Comment

          • PinotQ
            Senior Member
            • May 2010
            • 188

            #20
            Conpecia, I haven't been able to find the study suggesting 40 to 50 mg of s-equol would bind 100% of dht although I will continue to look as I will rely on this information once s-equol is released. However, I did find this study:

            http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=3032666_1477-7827-9-4-2&query=the&fields=all&favor=none&it=none&sub=none &uniq=0&sp=none&req=4&simCollection=1952536_200414 19f2&npos=21&prt=3

            which shows in the chart that binding is 100% at a concentration of 100 nmol/L. If you then go to Pharmavite's website page regarding pharmacology:

            http://www.naturalequol.com/pharmacokinetics.aspx

            you will see that 30mg of s-equol reaches a concentration of 1,200 nmol/L 1 hour after dosing. In other words, 30 mg, 1 hour after dosing is at 12 times the concentration needed for 100% binding to DHT. Pharmavite's pharmacology page states that the half-life for s-equol is 8 hours. Although I'm not sure exactly how this works, but just using simple math, the concentration of 30 mg s-equol 8 hours after dosing should be at 6 times that needed for 100% binding. So if I am interpreting this data correctly, there should be plenty of margin for error in suggesting that 20 to 25 mg twice a day or 15 mg 3 times a day should reach 100% binding of DHT.

            Can you suggest a few of the best places to read up on Keratene? I had not heard of it before reading this thread.

            Comment

            • Conpecia
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2011
              • 911

              #21
              Originally posted by PinotQ
              Conpecia, I haven't been able to find the study suggesting 40 to 50 mg of s-equol would bind 100% of dht although I will continue to look as I will rely on this information once s-equol is released. However, I did find this study:

              http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=3032666_1477-7827-9-4-2&query=the&fields=all&favor=none&it=none&sub=none &uniq=0&sp=none&req=4&simCollection=1952536_200414 19f2&npos=21&prt=3

              which shows in the chart that binding is 100% at a concentration of 100 nmol/L. If you then go to Pharmavite's website page regarding pharmacology:

              http://www.naturalequol.com/pharmacokinetics.aspx

              you will see that 30mg of s-equol reaches a concentration of 1,200 nmol/L 1 hour after dosing. In other words, 30 mg, 1 hour after dosing is at 12 times the concentration needed for 100% binding to DHT. Pharmavite's pharmacology page states that the half-life for s-equol is 8 hours. Although I'm not sure exactly how this works, but just using simple math, the concentration of 30 mg s-equol 8 hours after dosing should be at 6 times that needed for 100% binding. So if I am interpreting this data correctly, there should be plenty of margin for error in suggesting that 20 to 25 mg twice a day or 15 mg 3 times a day should reach 100% binding of DHT.

              Can you suggest a few of the best places to read up on Keratene? I had not heard of it before reading this thread.
              Not much on it beyond the official website and a few threads on various forums. Here's the main site:



              Honestly the BTT thread is a good source, but here's another:

              Comment

              • Ibrium
                Member
                • Jun 2012
                • 31

                #22
                I was taking bacillus coagulans and soy isoflavones a couple of months ago, and recently started up again, in the hopes of producing equol... But I have no idea how to tell if it's actually working for that purpose. I take fin as well, but I wouldn't mind being able to lower the dosage and have equol fill in the gap, if that's even possible.

                Comment

                • The Natural
                  Junior Member
                  • Nov 2011
                  • 10

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Ibrium
                  I was taking bacillus coagulans and soy isoflavones a couple of months ago, and recently started up again, in the hopes of producing equol... But I have no idea how to tell if it's actually working for that purpose. I take fin as well, but I wouldn't mind being able to lower the dosage and have equol fill in the gap, if that's even possible.
                  Interestingly, those at Proequol state that soy isoflavones supplements do not facilitate the production of equol. They recommend soymilk.

                  Comment

                  • PinotQ
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2010
                    • 188

                    #24
                    Conpecia, I see where it says that Keratene contains sterols and plant extracts but I don't see a lot of specifics. Does anyone know what is in it exactly? It is a slick site but my immediate thought on very minimal research would be that it is some combination of things like betasitisterol, saw palmetto, etc., things that have been tried and which may have some benefit but which are not ground breaking. This is just a guess of course. I have tried just about everything over the years and tend not to gravitate to things like this, TRX2, etc. On the other hand, if you google s-equol, you will see many many in depth studies on its pharmacolgy....there is no shroud of secrecy. So in terms of neutralizing DHT, I believe the next big advance will be s-equol and I believe it will be released by Nature Made this year and I believe it will be released by the time you would know if Keratene has any effect if you were just starting on it today. Contrary to what Proequol has said, I believe that Nature Made's s-equol can neutralize 100% of dht at somewhere in the 40 to 50 mg dosage per day range. It may be expensive at first but I am sure the price will drop as it catches on in the hairloss community. If you read the studies, you will see that many natural s-equol producers, produce s-equol in amounts well past what would be required for 100% neutralization and that supplements have been tested at up to 320 mg per day. So to me, safety is not an issue. However, it remains to be seen whether the proper dosage will halt further loss or merely slow it down like finesteride.

                    Comment

                    • Cob984
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 526

                      #25
                      Bumping this, did anyone get around to trying this product in the US?

                      Comment

                      • PinotQ
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2010
                        • 188

                        #26
                        Cob984, I believe I read somewhere that if Proequol does help generate s-equol, it would be the equivalent of 10 mg per day. Research from many different sources indicates that s-equol unquestionably binds very strongly to dht. S-equol does not prevent the conversion of dht from testosterone but attaches to dht once formed.....that, plus the fact that it naturally occurs in some humans, being the major distinction with other dht agonists. Based on my research (For example, see faqs.org/patents/app/20100076071 but add the link pre-fix), it would take at least "0.2 mg equol per kg weight of the recipient and preferably at least about 0.5 mg/kg" to be effective. In a 195 lb man, this would equate to a dosage of 18 mg per day at minimum or 45 mg at the .5 end. This patent app indicates that s-equol would be safe up to 10 mg per kg of body weight (or 884 total mg per day). I would estimate that for an effective mpb treatment, a 195 lb man would need to take at least 45 mg per day. FYI, the patent application was submitted by Lund, Setchell, etc who are university researchers and have been studying this for decades. Nature Made recently responded to my inquiry that their product will launch sometime within the next 12 months. I had previously heard it would launch in Q2 2013 so best case sometime in the next 3 months.

                        Comment

                        • Artista
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 2105

                          #27
                          Thanks for posting PinotQ,
                          Always good to see you here with your educated information.

                          Comment

                          • HARIRI
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2012
                            • 469

                            #28
                            Originally posted by PinotQ
                            Research from many different sources indicates that s-equol unquestionably binds very strongly to dht. S-equol does not prevent the conversion of dht from testosterone but attaches to dht once formed..
                            So this means that its mechanism is completely similar to Keratene Alphactive Retard as it does not prevent the conversion of DHT from testosterone but attaches to DHT once formed. Do you agree?

                            Comment

                            • PinotQ
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2010
                              • 188

                              #29
                              Thanks Artista..............Hariri, I don't know much about Keratene Alphactive Retard, but YES, s-equol attaches to DHT so that DHT cannot attach to the androgen receptors. In the link above to the patent application, it says that "Based on our in vivo studies it is apparent that relatively low doses of equol antagonize much higher doses of 5α-DHT". So it appears based on many studies, that s-equol is very powerful. I have no way to compare that to the strength of Keratene Alphactive Retard however I don't believe it is in the same ballpark. 2 points of interest are 1) that if you google mpb in the Asian population you will find assessments that the incidence of MPB in Asians (50 to 60% of which produce s-equol naturally from soy) is much less than for western cultures; and 2) it apparently is very effective at getting to the skin as the studies are showing that it repairs and helps produce collagen......they are noticing the reduction/disappearance of crows feet in many study participants. This also is covered in the patent.

                              Comment

                              • Cob984
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2012
                                • 526

                                #30
                                Originally posted by HARIRI
                                So this means that its mechanism is completely similar to Keratene Alphactive Retard as it does not prevent the conversion of DHT from testosterone but attaches to DHT once formed. Do you agree?
                                keratene prevents dht formation bro,
                                it claims to not lower total 5ar levels

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