Taking .05mg finasteride effective with fewer side effects?

[khan]

I have tried like all you guys propecia quarters twice a week I still gain weight so I'm going topical http://yupb.com/hair-regrowth/hair-regrowth-2040.html

Are you using Minox. I started using Minox 2 yrs prior to Finasteride. Minox gives me this bloated look. Its something I can live with, and keep it under control by staying lean. So nothing crazy.

But for me it is minox.

[thechamp]

Good link on topical fin

I have tried like all you guys propecia quarters twice a week I still gain weight so I'm going topical http://yupb.com/hair-regrowth/hair-regrowth-2040.html

[unk]

Your links no worky Dan. Is it this one? see p400 http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v...page&q&f=false

Desmond, I appreciate your expertise, however you seem to brush over what it is we are trying to determine here - the details which can be the difference between no sides and sides. More side effects occur (reported by Merck themselves) at 5mg compared to 1mg, inductively illustrating that trying to alter effects between 60-70% DHT reduction may not be entirely useless.

Is it safe to assume you have not suffered any side effects Desmond? I would say it's fairly likely for me personally, based on past fin dosing experience, that if I up my dose to 1mg from <0.2mg, I will get an onset of side effects. If that is true, and side effects are caused by DHT reduction, then <5% decrease in DHT is causing an onset of side effects. That is significant.

1) Taking .05mg reduces scalp DHT almost as much as anything above that dose. However, serum DHT is ~20% higher at that dose, meaning most likely fewer sides. This is according to one study.

Whilst the conversation has evolved, this is the headliner - reduce serum DHT by 20% LESS, and surely we get less side effects, with only <10% less effect on SCALP DHT reduction.

I can't find any pharmacological reports on finasteride since Steiner, 1996's study "Clinical pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of finasteride", which I can't access more than the abstract. Are you ascertaining the biological half-life based on studies with 14 day on/off finasteride studies?

[freddiegemini]

Desmond thats a ridiculously good post! thanks

So i'm finished with topical treatments - effective but over applying stuff to my scalp. Means i obsess daily.

My plan now is to quarter 1mg of propecia creating 0.25mg tablets.

I plan on taking one of these every 3 days.

Dosage aside (im happy with not putting as much finasteride in my body) is this infrequency ok?

I mean every 3 days - will this play around too much with my body? Is 3 days too long a gap meaning my body will be going up and down like a yo-yo?

(sorry for the lack of scientific jargon)

[Dan26]

Hey guys,

Just read your thread and realised you were looking for a pharmacist's advice on dosing. So here's what I can tell you guys for sure:

Finasteride has a flat dose response curve meaning taking 0.05mg, 0.2mg and 1mg daily would have exactly the same impact on your scalp DHT profile (which you guys have already realised)

Now, what that means is if you're going to experience sides on 1 mg, you're most likely going to experience sides on 0.05mg. Now, that being said, it may take a bit longer to surface, since its taking a longer period of time to reach a steady state (stabilise in your body). But if its going to happen, it will eventually happen!

So if you're just scared of getting sides and think that taking such a miniscule dose is going to stop that I can promise you that is not the case.

So, my honest opinion is that if you're desperate to try it but scared of sides, break a 1mg tablet into 4 pieces using a tablet cutter and take it 3 times a week (Mon, Wed, Fri). This should give you a good picture of how your body is going to react to this drug. AND BELIEVE ME IT"S STILL VERY EFFECTIVE

Dissolving it in ethanol and all that is fine, but why do it when there's no difference in your body's response. On top of that you're ingesting industrial grade alcohol for no reason at all!

With regards to taking it every other day or 3 times per week, it's safe to do so because of Finasteride's "pharmacological half-life". Now, please note that is different to the plasma half-life which is a measure of a drug's elimination from the body. (50% of finasteride is generally eliminated from your body within 2 hours)

The biological half-life on the other hand, is the point where its pharmacological effect (DHT reduction) is reduced by half. Now, for finasteride that is about 3-7 days, which allows you to take it 2-3 times a week rather than daily.

The reason why it has such a long biological half-life is because it is an IRREVERSIBLE inhibitor of 5-alpha-reductase, meaning that any alpha-reductase it binds to is pretty much deactivated and will no longer serve any purpose. Generally your body takes approximately 3-7 days to reproduce the same amount of 5-alpha-reductase and bring your DHT levels back up to normal. So, you can definitely take advantage of that and take it less often!

Hope that helps you guys out and let me know if you need any help with anything,

Cheers.

Wicked post desmond! Personally I am going to attempt to cut the pills into 0.125mg, we'll see how that goes lol. I'm not overly worried about finasteride not being uni-formally distributed throughout the pill. As I understand all pharmacological ingredients would be mixed in massive 'blenders' as it were and then stamped out, so it should be close to uniform at least (maybe you can give more insight into this?)

Also for anyone interested here is some additional info:

Chart: DHT inhibition after single dosages

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Important part of link below --> ‘’In human clinical trials the pharmacokinetic half-life of finasteride action, measured in terms of the drugs ability to reduce the systemic concentration of dihydrotesosterone after a single, oral dose of between 0.04 and 5mg, was > 7 days. The much longer duration of the pharmacological effect, relative the half-life of systemic exposure to the drug, is the direct result of the extremely slow dissociation rate for the enzyme-drug:NADP complex.’’

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

[Dan26]

Thanks for that information Dan I appreciate it. But still I would be extremely hesitant in my own opinion to myself and to others to mix off the shelf liquor with finasteride regardless of the dosage and mix it with mortar and pestle and put in a blender on frappe and promote this as a possible solution that others might try even if nothing might happen. If it does work I wish the champ the best of success in his endeavors.

Ya man I wouldn't bother even attempting topical fin either! Just putting the info out there, may be important for those wanting to take precise doses orally.

[Desmond84]

Hey guys,

Just read your thread and realised you were looking for a pharmacist's advice on dosing. So here's what I can tell you guys for sure:

Finasteride has a flat dose response curve meaning taking 0.05mg, 0.2mg and 1mg daily would have exactly the same impact on your scalp DHT profile (which you guys have already realised)

Now, what that means is if you're going to experience sides on 1 mg, you're most likely going to experience sides on 0.05mg. Now, that being said, it may take a bit longer to surface, since its taking a longer period of time to reach a steady state (stabilise in your body). But if its going to happen, it will eventually happen!

So if you're just scared of getting sides and think that taking such a miniscule dose is going to stop that I can promise you that is not the case.

So, my honest opinion is that if you're desperate to try it but scared of sides, break a 1mg tablet into 4 pieces using a tablet cutter and take it 3 times a week (Mon, Wed, Fri). This should give you a good picture of how your body is going to react to this drug. AND BELIEVE ME IT"S STILL VERY EFFECTIVE

Dissolving it in ethanol and all that is fine, but why do it when there's no difference in your body's response. On top of that you're ingesting industrial grade alcohol for no reason at all!

With regards to taking it every other day or 3 times per week, it's safe to do so because of Finasteride's "pharmacological half-life". Now, please note that is different to the plasma half-life which is a measure of a drug's elimination from the body. (50% of finasteride is generally eliminated from your body within 2 hours)

The biological half-life on the other hand, is the point where its pharmacological effect (DHT reduction) is reduced by half. Now, for finasteride that is about 3-7 days, which allows you to take it 2-3 times a week rather than daily.

The reason why it has such a long biological half-life is because it is an IRREVERSIBLE inhibitor of 5-alpha-reductase, meaning that any alpha-reductase it binds to is pretty much deactivated and will no longer serve any purpose. Generally your body takes approximately 3-7 days to reproduce the same amount of 5-alpha-reductase and bring your DHT levels back up to normal. So, you can definitely take advantage of that and take it less often!

Hope that helps you guys out and let me know if you need any help with anything,

Cheers.

[unk]

Also, the fact that Mercks patent runs out in 2013, does this imply not only a price reduction for generics to edge their way into the market, but more relevantly, that this would be an appropriate time to drive a 0.05mg dose option?

[unk]

Good info Dan!

I agree Benis. I guess Spencer might not support such an idea as he just takes 5mg here and there, but it's worth asking him, as he is a man who can cause change. I have 1mg pills Benis, which are 6mm diameter. I don't know how big the proscar 5mg pills are, but I doubt more than a few mm bigger right? So I have to split into 20, but once i've quartered, and estimated a quarter of those, 16ths aren't too hard. Whereas you would have to split into 100 If you buy your finasteride, you could always buy some 1mg and sell your remaining 5mg to someone on the forum, or ask your doc for propecia rather than proscar.

I am however not totally comfortable with assuming uniform distribution of a 1mg drug. In terms of drugs, that's a pretty small amount, comparable to about grain of salt I believe. I know drug companies have to aim for uniform distribution, which you can imagine is fine for a pill lets say 10mg, 100mg, 1000mg etc active ingredient.

[Benis23]

I have been trying to mimic the idea of dissolving finasteride in alcohol as described in that initial article quoted in the first post of this thread. I have to say, I don't think it works. I tried to dissolve 1 mg of finasteride in Everclear, and it does not appear to dissolve effectively. Even after mixing for some time, there are visible pieces of finasteride. It does not seem to be evenly spread throughout the alcohol, making it impossible to know how large of a dose you are taking.

My experience has been that it is easier to take small doses of finasteride by just cutting it into very small pieces. But, even this strategy is not very effective. A few people have mentioned pill cutters, but remember, to cut 5 mg of finasteride into .05 mg doses would mean cutting it into 100 pieces. To my knowledge, there is no pill cutter that can do that.

This is starting to feel kind of ridiculous. Why should it be so hard to take finasteride in doses of .05 mg?!

[ChrisM]

Thanks for that information Dan I appreciate it. But still I would be extremely hesitant in my own opinion to myself and to others to mix off the shelf liquor with finasteride regardless of the dosage and mix it with mortar and pestle and put in a blender on frappe and promote this as a possible solution that others might try even if nothing might happen. If it does work I wish the champ the best of success in his endeavors.

[Dan26]

'Finasteride is a white crystalline powder with a melting point near 250°C. It is freely soluble in chloroform and in lower alcohol solvents but is practically insoluble in water.'

http://www.pharmcom.com/propecia_description.html

[ChrisM]

sorry thechamp, it was not my intention to cause you ill feelings, instead I hoped you would think it over. As a NW1 as you say, it will be pretty hard to evaluate the effectiveness I imagine, and I can understand that your hair loss situation might be the reason you are willing to offer yourself as a martyr. I actually don't think it will be dangerous, but if you decide to do it, please monitor your health situation, and keep us posted.

Agreed. No disrespect to you the champ but you are not a pharmacist by your own admission or an advanced chemist to know what the interactions of finasteride and ethanol alcohol will cause to your body chemistry particularly when by design it was not meant to be delivered that way but internally in the bloodstream by digestion. It may at the least simply do nothing and at the worst have extreme side effects.

So you are taking a conceivable risk..a dice roll to your health here without comprehensive data to back it up and using yourself as a guinea pig is not wise though it is your body and your choice to do what you wish even though it is not advisable.

That would be to me the same logic as injecting the pill version of finasteride with ethanol straight into your testicles so it hits the prostrate immediately.. which is... pun intended.. quite nuts.

[ChrisM]

Is it even possible to cut the pill that small? I definitely cant do that with Proscar.

I know that for the Proscar 5mg you can use a pill cutter to trim it down to 1mg.. though I am not certain it can be used to cut down to .05 mg.. though I have heard of people cutting down to .5 or .25 mg respectively. Only way to know for sure is to stop by your local pharmacy upon looking to purchase it and asking the pharmacist if he has pill cutter that can measure a pill to that degree to be cut exactly that size.

[unk]

sorry thechamp, it was not my intention to cause you ill feelings, instead I hoped you would think it over. As a NW1 as you say, it will be pretty hard to evaluate the effectiveness I imagine, and I can understand that your hair loss situation might be the reason you are willing to offer yourself as a martyr. I actually don't think it will be dangerous, but if you decide to do it, please monitor your health situation, and keep us posted.