Inconclusive rant about finasteride, DHT reduction and ways to control it.

[Aston]

There are many theories which could validate the condition called "Post Finasteride Syndrome" and we can't logically exclude the possibility that certain pockets of population outside of the control groups in studies are vulnerable to it for one reason or another.

The many men who have placed their hopes on the effectiveness of finasteride (such as myself) will clearly always fight theirs fears and whoever fuels them, but whatever the truth is, many men feel finasteride has caused permanent damage to their health. All we can do is look together into the mechanics of such claims and compare data, for everyone's sake. Unfortunately medical science is still far from perfection, as are pharmaceuticals. Whether you like it or not, the ultimate "clinical trial" is the consumer market.

Arguing with partial knowledge for the sake of personal fears or unproven theories is futile and will only sour healthy discussion.

[2020]

There are many theories which could validate the condition called "Post Finasteride Syndrome" and we can't logically exclude the possibility that certain pockets of population outside of the control groups in studies are vulnerable to it for one reason or another.

maybe they had low DHT and low T to begin with.... finasteride has side effects just like any other drug. The numbers are correct. If you got side effects, you are part of those 3%. Deal with it

[clandestine]

There are many theories which could validate the condition called "Post Finasteride Syndrome" and we can't logically exclude the possibility that certain pockets of population outside of the control groups in studies are vulnerable to it for one reason or another.

The many men who have placed their hopes on the effectiveness of finasteride (such as myself) will clearly always fight theirs fears and whoever fuels them, but whatever the truth is, many men feel finasteride has caused permanent damage to their health. All we can do is look together into the mechanics of such claims and compare data, for everyone's sake. Unfortunately medical science is still far from perfection, as are pharmaceuticals. Whether you like it or not, the ultimate "clinical trial" is the consumer market.

Arguing with partial knowledge for the sake of personal fears or unproven theories is futile and will only sour healthy discussion.

Aston; how are you fairing with the modified dosage?

[Aston]

The numbers are correct for the tested population and represent an average, which is subject to errors in application.

Also, balding men in their twenties reportedly all have low T and high DHT. Either their 5a reductase enzyme is too active (current theory) or their SBHG production is impaired.

Unfortunately we do not posses enough data to assert anything and we should therefore stay open to the possibility.

[chrisis]

Thanks Aston. You get it!

[gutted]

maybe they had low DHT and low T to begin with.... finasteride has side effects just like any other drug. The numbers are correct. If you got side effects, you are part of those 3%. Deal with it

hormone levels fluctuate between individuals.
so i dont think this matters at all, if they had low tesosterone/dht levels then they would have had equally/balanced sensitive adnrogen receptors to maintain the status quo i.e homeostasis.

if they had highly sensitive andorgen receptors they probably would have a low dht/testosterone profile but this does not mean they would have erectile dysfunction based on their natrual low test/dht profile, the body would maintain the balance.

the key with propecia is the dosage, you need to find the right balance for yourself. the recomended dosage by merck is overkill and it is this, they need to revise.


there are plenty of people suffering sides from propecia dn there probably an equal number of people probably not suffering sides...right now, as it stands going on propecia is a gamble.

[Aston]

Aston; how are you fairing with the modified dosage?

My progression:

at start: aged 22, good libido, some acne (very oily skin), slow hair loss (NW2), very deep sleep

Day1: 0,3125mg (1st dose)
Day2: sleep issues (sleeping but waking up horribly tired)
Day3: sleep issues, Skin sebum feels entirely gone, previous acne healing
Day4: 0,3125mg (2st dose), sleep issues
Day5: sleep issues
Day6: sleep issues, acne gone, excess skin sebum gone
Day7: sleep issues get progressively better
---decided to wait one week before next dose---
Day14: 0,150mg
Day15: restless, but good sleep, acne still gone
Day16: good sleep (not as deep as before fin)
Day17: 0,150mg, good sleep
Day18: -today-

The lack of oil on my skin and scalp makes me think my DHT was kept fairly low despite the low doses and the 1 week pause. Will return to 0,3125mg at the next dose. No effect whatsoever on libido or anything else for now, but it's early for that, apparently.

[2020]

The numbers are correct for the tested population and represent an average, which is subject to errors in application.

what do you mean by that? There has been at least a dozen studies and all of them report very similar percentage numbers.
So either all of those studies are flawed or correct.

Also, balding men in their twenties reportedly all have low T and high DHT. Either their 5a reductase enzyme is too active (current theory) or their SBHG production is impaired.

citation needed

Unfortunately we do not posses enough data to assert anything and we should therefore stay open to the possibility.

it has been 20 years.... it has been tested for both BPH and MPB patients. We have plenty of data.

[2020]

the key with propecia is the dosage, you need to find the right balance for yourself. the recomended dosage by merck is overkill and it is this, they need to revise.

you do realize that Proscar that has a 5 times bigger dose that Propecia has a similar safety profile.... dosage is nothing.

there are plenty of people suffering sides from propecia dn there probably an equal number of people probably not suffering sides...right now, as it stands going on propecia is a gamble.

study after study after study after study..... 20 years in the game AND EVERY SINGLE STUDY COMES UP WITH THE SAME RESULTS. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

[Aston]

what do you mean by that? There has been at least a dozen studies and all of them report very similar percentage numbers.
So either all of those studies are flawed or correct.

The only test i know of which has tested a high number of men (>1000) for a medium period of time (5 years) is the one that got finasteride FDA approval. No long term studies exist. Most short term studies focus on men with BPH. As we speak studies are being conducted on possible side effects from finasteride, though. We'll have a better picture eventually, but the scientific community is taking this seriously.

citation needed

Wikipedia's page on Androgenic Alopecia:
"Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher levels of 5-alpha-reductase, lower levels of total testosterone, higher levels of unbound/free testosterone, and higher levels of total free androgens including DHT.[15][16]"

it has been 20 years.... it has been tested for both BPH and MPB patients. We have plenty of data.

And they are only checking for erectile dysfunction in rats now http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859

We don't even have a clear idea of how erections operate, how can we be sure of what can inhibit or damage them? I'm afraid you're underestimating the complexity of the subject.

[2020]

The only test i know of which has tested a high number of men (>1000) for a medium period of time (5 years) is the one that got finasteride FDA approval. No long term studies exist. Most short term studies focus on men with BPH. As we speak studies are being conducted on possible side effects from finasteride, though. We'll have a better picture eventually, but the scientific community is taking this seriously.

oh god.... I posted so many studies on proscar, propecia, and even avodart on this thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8283

There are more than enough studies done about this drug! Seriously, this is the most disputed drug of all time!!

Wikipedia's page on Androgenic Alopecia:
"Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher levels of 5-alpha-reductase, lower levels of total testosterone, higher levels of unbound/free testosterone, and higher levels of total free androgens including DHT.[15][16]"

yes.... and? Why only some of them get side effects?

And they are only checking for erectile dysfunction in rats now http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859

We don't even have a clear idea of how erections operate, how can we be sure of what can inhibit or damage them? I'm afraid you're underestimating the complexity of the subject.

and you think they weren't checking for erectile dysfunctions in their studies!?!? Erectile dysfunction would be considered a serious side effects yet somehow the occurrence of such side effects is very low

[clandestine]

2020; seems as if you have a vested interest in defending propecia against claims regarding sexual dysfunction. That's fine.

I found this study to be particularly interesting;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00563.x/abstract

"[...]blinded administration of finasteride was associated with a significantly higher proportion of sexual dysfunction in patients informed on sexual side effects (group 2) as compared to those in which the same information was omitted (group 1) (43.6% vs. 15.3%)"

Looks as if merely being informed of the possibility of sexual related sides drastically increases the probability that one might experience them. i.e. Nocebo phenomenon. Ouch! Not great for us forum-goers.

This^; just an aside. My opinion remains the same regarding finasteride; I feel it is a devastating medication for some, and we can't be sure of it's long term effects. Just because you don't have sides today, doesn't mean you won't be sexually defunct 10 years from now. Whose to say, though.

Worth the risk? Hard to say.

Some of this discussion has become redundant. Let's all agree to disagree? I mean, unless we're gearing for some sort of better understanding regarding the nature of sides, but at this point this does not seem to be the case.

Super chill.

[clandestine]

My progression:

at start: aged 22, good libido, some acne (very oily skin), slow hair loss (NW2), very deep sleep

Day1: 0,3125mg (1st dose)
Day2: sleep issues (sleeping but waking up horribly tired)
Day3: sleep issues, Skin sebum feels entirely gone, previous acne healing
[...]
Day18: -today-

Aston; thanks for the reply mate. Keep us updated with your progress every so often if you're up for it.

[chrisis]

I agree with clandestine. Though I don't understand what interested (unless a vested one) people have against bashing those sharing their experiences and theories.

Fear?

[2020]

2020; seems as if you have a vested interest in defending propecia against claims regarding sexual dysfunction. That's fine.

no dude I just don't agree when chris says that ALL of propecia's studies are flawed and that the drug is much more dangerous than it is when it's not!

I found this study to be particularly interesting;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00563.x/abstract

"[...]blinded administration of finasteride was associated with a significantly higher proportion of sexual dysfunction in patients informed on sexual side effects (group 2) as compared to those in which the same information was omitted (group 1) (43.6% vs. 15.3%)"

Looks as if merely being informed of the possibility of sexual related sides drastically increases the probability that one might experience them. i.e. Nocebo phenomenon. Ouch! Not great for us forum-goers.

yeah I posted that before.

Here is an extreme case of nocebo effect:

A man was diagnosed with cancer and told that he has few months to live.
He died a few months later altough it was not from cancer because he didn't have cancer to begin with - he was misdiagnosed!

If the nocebo effect can actually kill you, I'm sure it can give you an erectile dysfunction too....

This^; just an aside. My opinion remains the same regarding finasteride; I feel it is a devastating medication for some, and we can't be sure of it's long term effects. Just because you don't have sides today, doesn't mean you won't be sexually defunct 10 years from now. Whose to say, though.

yes but after so many years of studies and thousands and thousands of subjects, they haven't found anyone who got permanent side effects.... if it's even posible, can we AT LEAST agree that it's extremely rare???