Inconclusive rant about finasteride, DHT reduction and ways to control it.

[fab]

GUYS, STOP ARGUING!

Chrisis, I haven't got maca yet, but you can search online. And I'm pretty sure any natural health store would know as well.

[chrisis]

2020 I agree with all you say but unfortunately your arguing
with a guy that is convinced he gonna save us from propecia.

It's unworthy of your time.

I quit arguing with these guys.
They troll here all day, it's quite hilarious.
Peace out.

Says the guy who wrote a terrible troll post that went down like a lead balloon, then said he was gonna quit and is still here.

You keep saying you're going to leave when you get called out on your behaviour, and yet you return with this act of superiority.

[2020]

This thread is full of biased opinions for and against propecia.

... what was biased about what I said?

[clandestine]

This thread is full of biased opinions for and against propecia.

And as with most things in life, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Madhyamā-pratipad.

[WashedOut]

This thread is full of biased opinions for and against propecia.

[clandestine]

2020 I agree with all you say but unfortunately your arguing
with a guy that is convinced he gonna save us from propecia.

It's unworthy of your time.

I quit arguing with these guys.
They troll here all day, it's quite hilarious.
Peace out.

That whole leaving the forums thing didn't go great for you, did it mate?

[bob13]

2020 I agree with all you say but unfortunately your arguing
with a guy that is convinced he gonna save us from propecia.

It's unworthy of your time.

I quit arguing with these guys.
They troll here all day, it's quite hilarious.
Peace out.

[2020]

2020; seems as if you have a vested interest in defending propecia against claims regarding sexual dysfunction. That's fine.

no dude I just don't agree when chris says that ALL of propecia's studies are flawed and that the drug is much more dangerous than it is when it's not!

I found this study to be particularly interesting;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00563.x/abstract

"[...]blinded administration of finasteride was associated with a significantly higher proportion of sexual dysfunction in patients informed on sexual side effects (group 2) as compared to those in which the same information was omitted (group 1) (43.6% vs. 15.3%)"

Looks as if merely being informed of the possibility of sexual related sides drastically increases the probability that one might experience them. i.e. Nocebo phenomenon. Ouch! Not great for us forum-goers.

yeah I posted that before.

Here is an extreme case of nocebo effect:

A man was diagnosed with cancer and told that he has few months to live.
He died a few months later altough it was not from cancer because he didn't have cancer to begin with - he was misdiagnosed!

If the nocebo effect can actually kill you, I'm sure it can give you an erectile dysfunction too....

This^; just an aside. My opinion remains the same regarding finasteride; I feel it is a devastating medication for some, and we can't be sure of it's long term effects. Just because you don't have sides today, doesn't mean you won't be sexually defunct 10 years from now. Whose to say, though.

yes but after so many years of studies and thousands and thousands of subjects, they haven't found anyone who got permanent side effects.... if it's even posible, can we AT LEAST agree that it's extremely rare???

[chrisis]

I agree with clandestine. Though I don't understand what interested (unless a vested one) people have against bashing those sharing their experiences and theories.

Fear?

[clandestine]

My progression:

at start: aged 22, good libido, some acne (very oily skin), slow hair loss (NW2), very deep sleep

Day1: 0,3125mg (1st dose)
Day2: sleep issues (sleeping but waking up horribly tired)
Day3: sleep issues, Skin sebum feels entirely gone, previous acne healing
[...]
Day18: -today-

Aston; thanks for the reply mate. Keep us updated with your progress every so often if you're up for it.

[clandestine]

2020; seems as if you have a vested interest in defending propecia against claims regarding sexual dysfunction. That's fine.

I found this study to be particularly interesting;

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2007.00563.x/abstract

"[...]blinded administration of finasteride was associated with a significantly higher proportion of sexual dysfunction in patients informed on sexual side effects (group 2) as compared to those in which the same information was omitted (group 1) (43.6% vs. 15.3%)"

Looks as if merely being informed of the possibility of sexual related sides drastically increases the probability that one might experience them. i.e. Nocebo phenomenon. Ouch! Not great for us forum-goers.

This^; just an aside. My opinion remains the same regarding finasteride; I feel it is a devastating medication for some, and we can't be sure of it's long term effects. Just because you don't have sides today, doesn't mean you won't be sexually defunct 10 years from now. Whose to say, though.

Worth the risk? Hard to say.

Some of this discussion has become redundant. Let's all agree to disagree? I mean, unless we're gearing for some sort of better understanding regarding the nature of sides, but at this point this does not seem to be the case.

Super chill.

[2020]

The only test i know of which has tested a high number of men (>1000) for a medium period of time (5 years) is the one that got finasteride FDA approval. No long term studies exist. Most short term studies focus on men with BPH. As we speak studies are being conducted on possible side effects from finasteride, though. We'll have a better picture eventually, but the scientific community is taking this seriously.

oh god.... I posted so many studies on proscar, propecia, and even avodart on this thread:

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8283

There are more than enough studies done about this drug! Seriously, this is the most disputed drug of all time!!

Wikipedia's page on Androgenic Alopecia:
"Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher levels of 5-alpha-reductase, lower levels of total testosterone, higher levels of unbound/free testosterone, and higher levels of total free androgens including DHT.[15][16]"

yes.... and? Why only some of them get side effects?

And they are only checking for erectile dysfunction in rats now http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859

We don't even have a clear idea of how erections operate, how can we be sure of what can inhibit or damage them? I'm afraid you're underestimating the complexity of the subject.

and you think they weren't checking for erectile dysfunctions in their studies!?!? Erectile dysfunction would be considered a serious side effects yet somehow the occurrence of such side effects is very low

[Aston]

what do you mean by that? There has been at least a dozen studies and all of them report very similar percentage numbers.
So either all of those studies are flawed or correct.

The only test i know of which has tested a high number of men (>1000) for a medium period of time (5 years) is the one that got finasteride FDA approval. No long term studies exist. Most short term studies focus on men with BPH. As we speak studies are being conducted on possible side effects from finasteride, though. We'll have a better picture eventually, but the scientific community is taking this seriously.

citation needed

Wikipedia's page on Androgenic Alopecia:
"Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher levels of 5-alpha-reductase, lower levels of total testosterone, higher levels of unbound/free testosterone, and higher levels of total free androgens including DHT.[15][16]"

it has been 20 years.... it has been tested for both BPH and MPB patients. We have plenty of data.

And they are only checking for erectile dysfunction in rats now http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859

We don't even have a clear idea of how erections operate, how can we be sure of what can inhibit or damage them? I'm afraid you're underestimating the complexity of the subject.

[2020]

the key with propecia is the dosage, you need to find the right balance for yourself. the recomended dosage by merck is overkill and it is this, they need to revise.

you do realize that Proscar that has a 5 times bigger dose that Propecia has a similar safety profile.... dosage is nothing.

there are plenty of people suffering sides from propecia dn there probably an equal number of people probably not suffering sides...right now, as it stands going on propecia is a gamble.

study after study after study after study..... 20 years in the game AND EVERY SINGLE STUDY COMES UP WITH THE SAME RESULTS. HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

[2020]

The numbers are correct for the tested population and represent an average, which is subject to errors in application.

what do you mean by that? There has been at least a dozen studies and all of them report very similar percentage numbers.
So either all of those studies are flawed or correct.

Also, balding men in their twenties reportedly all have low T and high DHT. Either their 5a reductase enzyme is too active (current theory) or their SBHG production is impaired.

citation needed

Unfortunately we do not posses enough data to assert anything and we should therefore stay open to the possibility.

it has been 20 years.... it has been tested for both BPH and MPB patients. We have plenty of data.