How much time with Rogaine

[mpb47]

Do these "other posters" have any clinical data to support this claim? Of course, they don't. They only spread unsubstantied misinformation resulting from their personal frustration and a lack of success with anti-hairloss medications.

The longest studies on minoxidil are from late 80's, and the longest of them lasted 5 years (Olssen et al. 1990). Although the average haircounts in this study started to decrease after 2 years, it is worthy of note that if we extrapolated the declining curve into the future, the average user in this study would reach the baseline after ca. 15 years. Furthermore, one-third of well-responding patients gained hair even after 5 years. And this was with 3% minoxidil! In fact, there are people, who have been keeping their hair with minoxidil since it entered the market in 1987!

I think that if we actually had any long-term study on minoxidil at disposal, we would be very surprised, how effective this drug is. The very fact that the majority of unsuccessful minoxidil users on internet forums consists of people, in whom it "stopped working after few years" may indeed show that this sample is highly unrepresentative. Furthermore, many of them idly waited, until they were NW4, and now they wonder that they can't keep the process at bay. Their fault. Letting aside the fact that the everyday's topical application places high demands on discipline, which only a minority of people possess.

Personally, I started to use minoxidil in 1997 and it would never occur to me that it should stop working. And it never did, even after 16+ years. It was only after I started to visit internet forums in 2007, when I first heard claims about "the loss of effeciacy".

I am disgusted by this stupid defeatist propaganda that I encounter on internet forums. But I realize that this situation will always be the same, because people, who use anti-hairloss drugs successfully, don't visit these forums and may not even know that they exist.

Minox never stops working it's just that it can't completely stop the effects of DHT over time. I have been on it about the same amount of time and it is still working for me. But I would be lying through my teeth if I claimed I was not gradually getting balder over time.

Are you saying you have not lost any hair since '97 on minox alone WITHOUT propecia?

[mpb47]

Several years ago, many doctors claimed that fin stops working "after 3-5 years". Now, when we have fresh 10-years' data of its efficiacy, they suddenly changed their opinion. Which means that their opinions are worthless. They extrapolate from few cases that they encounter in their clinical praxis, and sometimes show complete inability to understand written words.

There are no set rules in stone. For some it does stop working as well after X amount of years. Some have got 15+ years and it's still going. Everyone is different.

[WarLord]

Are you saying you have not lost any hair since '97 on minox alone WITHOUT propecia?

Yes. What is so surprising on this? And I am certainly not alone in this world.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=75704

5-AR blockers eliminate DHT that stands at the root of the process. Minoxidil counterbalances the negative effect of prostaglandins that stand at the end of the chain of reactions triggered by DHT. It doesn't matter, if you use 5-AR blockers or minoxidil. They both work. Well, it is true that 5-AR blockers may work better than 5% minoxidil, but what about 10% or 15% minoxidil?

It is only due to the myths spread by certain individuals in the internet that people started to believe that "minoxidil doesn't address the underlying cause of MPB" and hence it is not possible that it could work forever. This is a silly fallacy that is at variance with both anecdotal experience and available clinical data.

With finasteride, it is not much different. Internet forums are full of guys whining that it will stop working for all men one day. At the same time, in the Rossi et al.'s study, only 4% men experienced a reversal of the positive trend during those 10 years. Four percent! But on this site, you can estimate that these guys make up 80-90% posters! In other words, we get a very perverse picture about how the drugs work. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to visit these forums regularly, after they get the advice they needed.

[WarLord]

There are no set rules in stone. For some it does stop working as well after X amount of years. Some have got 15+ years and it's still going. Everyone is different.

Exactly. The drugs have a very variable degree of efficiacy. This is why some people on 3% minoxidil enjoyed continued growth even after 4-5 years, while others were losing hair despite regular minoxidil use. It is a shame that the companies have no long-term data at disposal and the internet mythmakers can brainwash people by their fallacies.

The fatal mistake of some people (and often it's doctors) is that they extrapolate from certain individual cases and make general statements like "minoxidil works only for 3-5 years". Yes, for SOME people. And the studies from late 80's indicate that these people aren't even a majority, but rather a small minority.

By the way, I don't buy all those stories about people, who regrew hair on minoxidil and then they started to lose it quickly after several years. There must be some other factors in the game. Most probably sloppy application.

[WarLord]

Minox never stops working it's just that it can't completely stop the effects of DHT over time. I have been on it about the same amount of time and it is still working for me. But I would be lying through my teeth if I claimed I was not gradually getting balder over time.

Are you saying you have not lost any hair since '97 on minox alone WITHOUT propecia?

But remember one thing: I started immediately after I observed first signs of hairloss. And I still benefit from this, because I have been NW 1.5 until today. This may be the key for a long-term success.

Actually, why the hell should minoxidil ultimately stop working in all people? People use various medications for decades and they still work. In some, they work only partly or don't work at all. This is normal. It is only the delusional, old-fashioned idea that "there is nothing that can be done about MPB" that influences your opinion about the long-term efficiacy of anti-hairloss drugs. Why should they be different from other drugs that people use?

[mpb47]

Yes. What is so surprising on this? And I am certainly not alone in this world.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=75704

5-AR blockers eliminate DHT that stands at the root of the process. Minoxidil counterbalances the negative effect of prostaglandins that stand at the end of the chain of reactions triggered by DHT. It doesn't matter, if you use 5-AR blockers or minoxidil. They both work. Well, it is true that 5-AR blockers may work better than 5% minoxidil, but what about 10% or 15% minoxidil?

It is only due to the myths spread by certain individuals in the internet that people started to believe that "minoxidil doesn't address the underlying cause of MPB" and hence it is not possible that it could work forever. This is a silly fallacy that is at variance with both anecdotal experience and available clinical data.

With finasteride, it is not much different. Internet forums are full of guys whining that it will stop working for all men one day. At the same time, in the Rossi et al.'s study, only 4% men experienced a reversal of the positive trend during those 10 years. Four percent! But on this site, you can estimate that these guys make up 80-90% posters! In other words, we get a very perverse picture about how the drugs work. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to visit these forums regularly, after they get the advice they needed.

If you have not lost ANY hair since '97 on minox alone, are you sure you even have mpb and not some other type of hair loss? My family's mpb history is a very gradual but eventual nw 6 type pattern. I have had very good response to minox (crown) and propecia (crown and hairline). I eventually got sides from Propecia and had to get off, but stayed on minox . On the propecia/minox combo my crown went almost back to normal, but since stopping propecia 6-7 years ago my crown has come back and is gradually expanding and getting bigger. I wish it were not true, but pictures say otherwise.
Minox alone might keep me from eventually getting "horseshoed", but even that is uncertain. If you have not lost any hair since '97, you probably do not have mpb but something else. MPB, even if very very slow on it's own like mine is, does not stop on minox alone.

[WarLord]

If you have not lost ANY hair since '97 on minox alone, are you sure you even have mpb and not some other type of hair loss? My family's mpb history is a very gradual but eventual nw 6 type pattern. I have had very good response to minox (crown) and propecia (crown and hairline). I eventually got sides from Propecia and had to get off, but stayed on minox . On the propecia/minox combo my crown went almost back to normal, but since stopping propecia 6-7 years ago my crown has come back and is gradually expanding and getting bigger. I wish it were not true, but pictures say otherwise.
Minox alone might keep me from eventually getting "horseshoed", but even that is uncertain. If you have not lost any hair since '97, you probably do not have mpb but something else. MPB, even if very very slow on it's own like mine is, does not stop on minox alone.

It does not stop in you... I am sorry. But it does stop in others. If you are interested, here is another post from Amazon.com:

"I am 66 and began using rogaine when it was still a prescription 25 years ago. At that time, I had mild receding hairline and some thinning in the crown. 2% was all that was available then, then switched to 5%. Kirkland's has the best price on line, but I can get 3 months supply of Equate in Wal-Mart for $18.64. As far as results, the level of thinning has remained the same for 25 years. I also use DHS 2% pythrione zinc(double head and shoulders)shampoo 3 times a week, also shown to curtail baldness. My own opinion is that if you are already skin bald, save your money. I think all of the minoxidil based solutions work best if you are just beginning to bald. You have a good chance of maintaining what you have and the younger the better. Sometimes the genetic factor is so strong like the Hasselback brothers, it's just too strong to overcome."

Let's stop the mythmaking, please, and face real-life results.

When you say that you were already NW4+ (bald crown), when you started with minoxidil, you fall exactly into the category of guys that I mentioned in my previous posts and your case perfectly confirms my words. You started too late, bro. I am sorry.

Furthermore, your posts indicate that you are not willing to do everything to keep your hair. You quitted finasteride because of "side effects" that may have been imaginary anyway. And now you obviously use this forum as a sort of psychotherapy.

I wouldn't quit an effective medication because of any side effects. Even the risk of death would be more acceptable for me than a life with a bald head. And I am not joking. I had serious problems with my hair during the last 5 months (partly due to shedding possibly caused by finasteride, partly due to switching between minoxidil brands) and I realized that I couldn't handle getting bald. I would get mad. Hence your decision to quit finasteride, when it was well working, is absolutely mindboggling for me.

[mpb47]

It does not stop in you... I am sorry. But it does stop in others. If you are interested, here is another post from Amazon.com:

"I am 66 and began using rogaine when it was still a prescription 25 years ago. At that time, I had mild receding hairline and some thinning in the crown. 2% was all that was available then, then switched to 5%. Kirkland's has the best price on line, but I can get 3 months supply of Equate in Wal-Mart for $18.64. As far as results, the level of thinning has remained the same for 25 years. I also use DHS 2% pythrione zinc(double head and shoulders)shampoo 3 times a week, also shown to curtail baldness. My own opinion is that if you are already skin bald, save your money. I think all of the minoxidil based solutions work best if you are just beginning to bald. You have a good chance of maintaining what you have and the younger the better. Sometimes the genetic factor is so strong like the Hasselback brothers, it's just too strong to overcome."

Let's stop the mythmaking, please, and face real-life results.

When you say that you were already NW4+ (bald crown), when you started with minoxidil, you fall exactly into the category of guys that I mentioned in my previous posts and your case perfectly confirms my words. You started too late, bro. I am sorry.

I am sorry but you must have me mistaken with someone else. I was never a NW4, then or now. I started using minox even before I needed it. I used it to try to get back my teen hairline, only then I did not know that was impossible. Years later, when I did actually start to recede and thin, I was already on it! I tried using more and more of it but after almost 2 years of seeing declining results, I went on propecia. Only after I added propecia did things start to reverse. Got results in the front around 3-4 months but back took about 9 months before I saw results. Check my threads, I recently posted pics about a week ago that were taken when I was first starting to thin. I was on minox then and it certainly did not stop it as my mpb was too aggressive at that point.

Furthermore, your posts indicate that you are not willing to do everything to keep your hair. You quitted finasteride because of "side effects" that may have been imaginary anyway. And now you obviously use this forum as a sort of psychotherapy.

The side effects were real. I just wasn't sure that propecia was entirely responsible. Because I have had problems 2 times and the second time was far far worse and I had been off of propecia for 5+ years at that time. The second time, I did the right thing and went to my DR and she figured out my T was on the low side. Not really that low 250 to low 300's yet I couldn't think straight and in time became physically weak. The one thing I should have asked her is why women have much lower levels of T than I had yet have no problems. Only thing I can guess is having high E figures in it some way.

I wouldn't quit an effective medication because of any side effects. Even the risk of death would be more acceptable for me than a life with a bald head. And I am not joking. I had serious problems with my hair during the last 5 months (partly due to shedding possibly caused by finasteride, partly due to switching between minoxidil brands) and I realized that I couldn't handle getting bald. I would get mad.

So you do use propecia- well that changes everything. Try keeping ALL of your hair from '97 on minox alone. If you really have mpb, not just a mature hairline, you can't. And the 4 years I was on propecia saved me from (at that time) aggressive mpb and I would surly be much further along today had I not used it.

When I did have sides when I was using propecia, I had anxiety, depression, dry skin, no sex drive but I never got weak and in fact ran 2-3 miles several times a week.

But if you ever have low T like I had the second time I can assure you you , you would not be able to live a normal life without seeking help from your DR. My muscles started wasting away and I had constant brain fog. I gained about 75lbs on top of that and was about to get diabetes. I could barely walk much less run.

Hence your decision to quit finasteride, when it was well working, is absolutely mindboggling for me.

You mentioned you couldn't handle getting bald. Honestly I have trouble with it myself. But the risk is so high since I am too sensitive low hormones that I am scared to risk it. My hormones were not really that low and my dr said some guys would be fine at that level. My Dr's best guess was that my body had high levels of T to begin with and needs it to function. So I am sorta screwed that I need high levels of T to be normal, yet it's slowly taking my hair.

With that said, I'll take slow mpb over feeling like death any day of the week.

[WarLord]

So you do use propecia- well that changes everything. Try keeping ALL of your hair from '97 on minox alone. If you really have mpb, not just a mature hairline, you can't.

I have been on finasteride since June last year. I have kept ALL of my hair since 1997. No problem. In fact, the stuff was so reliable that I took steroids during this time. I suppose that it would work forever.

You are simply a non-responder to minoxidil. Your claims are unsubstantied generalizations. From your posts I see that you actually don't know, if it has ever worked. Furthermore, your story seems a bit confusing to me. You say that minoxidil couldn't keep your hair, yet it regrew hair on your crown? More clarity, please.

And what about your "side effects" - they are quite apparently imaginary. I don't know then, what is your business here. You refuse to use effective medications and then you are lurking about the internet and tell people that "you can't keep your hair on minoxidil alone". Great. And then one wonders, where all the internet myths come from. Wouldn't it be better, if you again jumped on finasteride, and didn't spread these mystifications on internet forums?

[WarLord]

I saw your pictures.

"went off Minox for about 3 months"

WHAT?! You quitted minoxidil after such a long-term use? And how many times did you do the same during all those years? It seems that it is such a "detail" for you that you don't have to mention it.

[mpb47]

I have been on finasteride since June last year. I have kept ALL of my hair since 1997. No problem. In fact, the stuff was so reliable that I took steroids during this time. I suppose that it would work forever.

I have posted my pictures, lets see some of yours.

You are simply a non-responder to minoxidil. Your claims are unsubstantied generalizations. From your posts I see that you actually don't know, if it has ever worked. Furthermore, your story seems a bit confusing to me. You say that minoxidil couldn't keep your hair, yet it regrew hair on your crown? More clarity, please.

Clarity- On Minox alone even if you have gradual mpb it will not be enough by itself to completely prevent your mpb progression OVER TIME. It can make your hair stay around much longer than without it- but your mpb will advance OVER TIME.

And what about your "side effects" - they are quite apparently imaginary. I don't know then, what is your business here. You refuse to use effective medications and then you are lurking about the internet and tell people that "you can't keep your hair on minoxidil alone". Great. And then one wonders, where all the internet myths come from. Wouldn't it be better, if you again jumped on finasteride, and didn't spread these mystifications on internet forums?

If I knew I could safely use propecia again I would be on right away- even have plenty of it in stock if I decide to take the plunge. I got far better results when I went on propecia. Minox never really grew much hair up front, but propecia did.

Again lets see some pictures with some proof that minox alone can completely keep your hair since '97

Minox is a great tool for keeping your hair longer, but alone it is not enough to completely stop mpb over time. I still stand by that statement. If you can't use propecia it is certainly far better than doing nothing. If you still don't believe me, ask some of the dr's on this board. I will bet you right now that most would agree with me.

[mpb47]

I saw your pictures.

"went off Minox for about 3 months"

WHAT?! You quitted minoxidil after such a long-term use? And how many times did you do the same during all those years? It seems that it is such a "detail" for you that you don't have to mention it.

If you read my posts you will know I went off of it because I needed to be sure it was not adding to my health problems. It was not, but if anything good came of it, it proved it was still working.

[MackJames]

I didn't experience any regrowth from minoxidil until after six months. I was about to quit but decided to continue since minoxidil is cheap, and I am glad I did.

[WarLord]

Clarity- On Minox alone even if you have gradual mpb it will not be enough by itself to completely prevent your mpb progression OVER TIME. It can make your hair stay around much longer than without it- but your mpb will advance OVER TIME.

You have nothing to base this statement on. Everything you have is your personal frustrating experience with which you infect this message board. Furthermore, I can imagine how disciplined you have been during the whole time on minoxidil. Going off for 3 months?! Insanity!

[WarLord]

I HAVE NO PROBLEM TO POST PICTURES, BY THE WAY.




And you still haven't replied to my question. It seems to me that your history with míinoxidil will be more complicated than it seems - as it is almost always the case with whining hypochondriac guys on message boards.