The 50 Graft Test Procedure

[hellouser]

Whats so difficult about knowing if HST works or not with 80% regeneration when using IronMan's simple suggestion:

Just count the total number of hairs that regrew from regenerated follicles and the total number of hairs that grew in the recipient area. The numbers should reflect what percentage there is of regeneration and recipient growth.

Forget follicles.

I dont see what all the fuss is about in this thread??

[JJJJrS]

And JJJJR's, what do you think about my idea ?

I'm assuming this is your idea:

Exactly. I'm willing to put up $50,000 IF my hair truely regenerates. I'd be happy with 65%. Even with 50% I'd still get at least another HST, but I'd not be so sure about getting a 3rd ASAP.

Anyway, what JJJR's did was analyze a subset of your donor grafts and compare how many hairs regenerated there. But obviously in theory a part of these grafts were just failed extractions/transections or whatever you want to call it. We'd need to find out how many hairs you've lost in your donor and we'd need to find out how many (approx) grew in your recipient.

Now, I don't need an EXACT number, just a ballpark number. Hence I'd be happy with a slightly less reliable number if that saves us tons of works. What I'm saying here, if we can just count the amount of possible extraction sites ('bloody/red" spots) we can extrapolate. For example let's say that according to jjjrs you've lost 20 hairs in those 100 spots he examined, we can just assume you've lost 0.2 hair per spot and multiply that with the amount of spots. Of course it would be better to count them ALL, but that's a hell of a job. Well maybe we could count another 100 to get an even more reliable number and use that.

So, then we'll know (approx) how many hairs you've lost. Next we'd need to count new hairs in recipient. And to me it's all about that ratio: how many hairs do you sacrifice in donor to get how many hairs in recipient.

Does this make sense ?

Overall, I think gc's procedure is far too large to get a real conclusive answer. If we want to get a complete picture we have to look at a complete procedure including all extractions and implantations. I think the 50 graft test is the only practical and conclusive way to do that really.

But it's possible that I'm not fully understanding your idea.

[gc83uk]

Whats so difficult about knowing if HST works or not with 80% regeneration when using IronMan's simple suggestion:

Just count the total number of hairs that regrew from regenerated follicles and the total number of hairs that grew in the recipient area. The numbers should reflect what percentage there is of regeneration and recipient growth.

Forget follicles.

I dont see what all the fuss is about in this thread??

We all know this mate.

But answer me this, if you count 500 hairs regrowing the donor and 250 in the recipient, I suppose you think that would be awesome right?

Not so. I can explain that to you if you need me to, however I'm sure you already know.

The only conclusive way is to have an EXCELLENT pre op photos which show the number of hairs in every fu which MIGHT get extracted. That is not easy for most people.

An extreme example would be Hasci could extract 3000 hairs 2900 could be transections of which 100% of those transections grows back. In the recipient they only implant 100 hairs.

What % of regrowth have you got? You have 100% if you count 3000 hairs in the donor. But you won't know where those 3000 hairs are without the proper pre op pics.

[Arashi]

Whats so difficult about knowing if HST works or not with 80% regeneration when using IronMan's simple suggestion:

Just count the total number of hairs that regrew from regenerated follicles and the total number of hairs that grew in the recipient area. The numbers should reflect what percentage there is of regeneration and recipient growth.

Forget follicles.

I dont see what all the fuss is about in this thread??

Regarding recipient, you're right. However regarding donor, you'll need to know how many hairs were in the extraction sites in the first place. Only then you can calculate how many hairs were lost.

Anyway, this is exactly what my plan is: See how many hairs GC lost in donor and see how many hairs he got in recipient. That's all we need to know.

There are 2 ways to do this. First way is to do an analysis like JJJJrS did: compare pre and postop of donor and count how many hairs are gone. However JJJJrS only did 100 grafts and I can bet that this was already a horrible amount of work. To do this for ALL possible extraction sites is just not very feasible.

However, the 2nd way to do this is to extrapolate/estimate. We know how many hairs GC lost on those 107 or so extraction sites that JJJJrS analysed. Hence we can calculate the average lost hair per extraction site. Multiply that by the total number of extraction sites and you have an estimate of the total amount of hair GC lost in donor.

[gc83uk]

Regarding recipient, you're right. However regarding donor, you'll need to know how many hairs were in the extraction sites in the first place. Only then you can calculate how many hairs were lost.

Anyway, this is exactly what my plan is: See how many hairs GC lost in donor and see how many hairs he got in recipient. That's all we need to know.

There are 2 ways to do this. First way is to do an analysis like JJJJrS did: compare pre and postop of donor and count how many hairs are gone. However JJJJrS only did 100 grafts and I can bet that this was already a horrible amount of work. To do this for ALL possible extraction sites is just not very feasible.

However, the 2nd way to do this is to extrapolate/estimate. We know how many hairs GC lost on those 107 or so extraction sites that JJJJrS analysed. Hence we can calculate the average lost hair per extraction site. Multiply that by the total number of extraction sites and you have an estimate of the total amount of hair GC lost in donor.

I also think it's worth adding a new set of donor pics to the library, I buzz my hair every 2 or 3 days, you never know some of the hairs might have grown stronger or generally more may have grown through.

An easier test maybe to just compare a new photo with JJJJrS's last edition to see if there has been any improvement over 3 months.

[JJJJrS]

Whats so difficult about knowing if HST works or not with 80% regeneration when using IronMan's simple suggestion:

Just count the total number of hairs that regrew from regenerated follicles and the total number of hairs that grew in the recipient area. The numbers should reflect what percentage there is of regeneration and recipient growth.

Forget follicles.

I dont see what all the fuss is about in this thread??

Just to illustrate one problem, let's look at the petri dish photo again.

Take a look at the subsection of the petri dish labelled '1'. This is supposed to contain all single hair grafts. What you'll notice however, is that the vast majority of these grafts have two hairs - one of which is transected . According to HASCI, the vast majority of these transections should regenerate in the donor but will not yield in the recipient.

Let's pretend we don't have this knowledge and we don't have a good before photo and just look at the extraction points. Practically every one of the extraction points where the single-hair grafts were extracted from will regenerate hair, even if there was no real regeneration, soley due to the transected hair!

There's additional problems too. There was approximately 50 more extraction points then usuable grafts. These were likely transections also, and every single one of these should regenerate hairs also without providing a useful hair graft.

So what you'll have in reality, is a totally inflated donor regeneration figure which has no basis in reality. You need good before photos and you must link the donor results with the recipient otherwise the analysis isn't worth much.

[Arashi]

please delete t

[gc83uk]

good stuff

[Arashi]

thx, I've got em

[JJJJrS]

Received..

[gc83uk]

I'll add new pics each week to the library and assuming I go to Hasci for my 4th HST which I'm planning in Sept/Oct then I'll upload again to that account.

[Arashi]

Ok, downing the pics, will take some time. Sorry but I forgot, how many grafts did you get exactly in HST 3 ? 800 in total ? Or did you go 2 days ?

[gc83uk]

Ok, downing the pics, will take some time. Sorry but I forgot, how many grafts did you get exactly in HST 3 ? 800 in total ? Or did you go 2 days ?

1600 in total 800 each day.

I had you down as living in Holland, you lucky bugger! I won't say much else.

[Arashi]

1600 in total 800 each day.

I had you down as living in Holland, you lucky bugger! I won't say much else.

Hehe, it IS actually (part of) The Netherlands

[Arashi]

So do I understand correctly that they took 800 on one side of your scalp and the other 800 on the other side ? And are the photo's good enough to count the total of possible extraction sites ? They're still downing, will take some time ...