KÉRATENE Alphactive ® Retard

[clandestine]

Try the Letro maybe; the earlier the better. Taper on to it, though. And be sure to taper off too. Be consistent in taking it too, same time every day.

Meds like Letro, Nolva, etc. are your only options, barring surgery. There was another great one Ive heard of.. Raloxifene or something. I would urge you to look into it.

[Conpecia]

I'd love an answer to that question champ. letro is the only thing i know of but i'm kinda afraid to mess around with that stuff, actually purchased some several months ago but never used it. might have to start though because my gyno still hurts and it's been almost half a year since i quit fin.

[thechamp]

Weight gain on fin

Is there anything we can do to control the estrogen levels and weight gain on propecia any supplements besides dim that we can take?

[JulioGP]

Did you take any tests before and during fin?
Higher estrogen levels doesn't have to be a result of higher testosterone. DHT in it self is a estrogen inhibitor if I remember correct, so if you decrease DHT you will increase estrogen.

I have seen tests that show decreased testo levels after starting fin. Though most tests I have seen have shown quite stable testo levels and an increase in estrogen after starting fin.

I do exams every month to keep under control and monitoring my DHT, testosterone and other important hormones. Although there are studies, never seen someone who has posted their blood test with low testosterone after use of Finasteride. Have to see what is the credibility of these studies because if is equal to that Merck performs, suspicion should be great.

[Ted]

I have over 30 years and when I used Finasteride my testosterone rose considerably and aromatized. This process is extremely simple to understand and is one of the bets of the Kératene maintain stable levels of testosterone, which I doubt very much and I will do the test.

Did you take any tests before and during fin?
Higher estrogen levels doesn't have to be a result of higher testosterone. DHT in it self is a estrogen inhibitor if I remember correct, so if you decrease DHT you will increase estrogen.

I have seen tests that show decreased testo levels after starting fin. Though most tests I have seen have shown quite stable testo levels and an increase in estrogen after starting fin.

[JulioGP]

Just because you cant see the logic behind this doesn't mean that it is wrong. As you can see, Enden (one of the most active finasteride debaters I have seen) has some thoughts about the reason of this. And even if those thoughts are wrong the studies he posted is more trustworthy than someones "logical thoughts" about how fin effects us.

I have seen more studies showing decrease in testosterone but also studies showing increase in testo. I've even read a study that showed decrease in people older than 26 and increase in the ones younger.

Don't know what to make of this but I don't think anyone should trust their logical thinking to much when i comes to hormones. It's tricky business

I have over 30 years and when I used Finasteride my testosterone rose considerably and aromatized. This process is extremely simple to understand and is one of the bets of the Kératene maintain stable levels of testosterone, which I doubt very much and I will do the test.

[Ted]

This reasoning is wrong. If you block conversion to DHT, testosterone would automatically be converted will remain in the bloodstream, making the level rise. has no way to be different, because this testosterone is not converted or used.

Just because you cant see the logic behind this doesn't mean that it is wrong. As you can see, Enden (one of the most active finasteride debaters I have seen) has some thoughts about the reason of this. And even if those thoughts are wrong the studies he posted is more trustworthy than someones "logical thoughts" about how fin effects us.

I have seen more studies showing decrease in testosterone but also studies showing increase in testo. I've even read a study that showed decrease in people older than 26 and increase in the ones younger.

Don't know what to make of this but I don't think anyone should trust their logical thinking to much when i comes to hormones. It's tricky business

[JulioGP]

Some say fin decreases free testosterone:
http://www.****************/interact...e-testosterone!

This reasoning is wrong. If you block conversion to DHT, testosterone would automatically be converted will remain in the bloodstream, making the level rise. has no way to be different, because this testosterone is not converted or used.

[Ted]

What I do know is that in fact what finasteride does is INCREASE testosterone levels and this increase is that does the conversion, the opposite of what the text is saying, well, the use of Finasteride does not reduce the levels of Testosterone because the block of 5AR "will be left" more testosterone in the blood stream so that there is an increase in their levels, which can become cause aromatization.

This theory that testosterone decreases is wrong.

Some say fin decreases free testosterone:
http://www.****************/interact...e-testosterone!

[JulioGP]

How to reduce Propecia/Finasteride side effects
I created a reply in another topic that I felt might be helpful to others using propecia.
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=68428&p=640985#p640985

Many of the side effects are caused by lowered testosterone levels, increased estrogen levels, or both. I address how you can solve these 2 issues in my reply to this topic.

Copy of my reply:

Originally Posted by ripple-effect
You would have to use an aromatase(increases estrogen) inhibitor along with a SHBG(lowers free T) inhibitor.

Free Testosterone wants to become one of these 3 things when it is floating around in your body:
1.) DHT
2.) estradiol
3.) bind to SHBG(Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

Since Propecia inhibits the production of DHT, the Free T will mainly only convert to estradiol(type of estrogen) or bind to SHBG. To prevent conversion of Free T into estradiol you would need to use an aromatase inhibitor. An effective natural aromatase inhibitor I would recommend is Grape Seed Extract. This should also help prevent some of the Propecia side effects such as gyno which is caused by increased estrogen levels. A potent brand of GSE I would recommend and use myself is Nature's Plus:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00014 ... B00014G47S

or Jarrow's formula is another potent brand I would highly recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013O ... B0013OXA2M

You also need to prevent Free T from binding to the SHBG. To accomplish this I would recommend increasing your protein intake and using Fish oil supplements. This should help prevent sexual dysfunction by increasing testosterone levels.

This should result in a greater increase of Free T in your system which has many great health benefits.
Nizoral 2%

What I do know is that in fact what finasteride does is INCREASE testosterone levels and this increase is that does the conversion, the opposite of what the text is saying, well, the use of Finasteride does not reduce the levels of Testosterone because the block of 5AR "will be left" more testosterone in the blood stream so that there is an increase in their levels, which can become cause aromatization.

This theory that testosterone decreases is wrong.

[thechamp]

Grape seed extract

Since I have the research on hand (having put it into my latest product, CyoGenX), here's some cool stuff on GrapeSeedExtract (Procyanidin), from various human, in situ, in vitro, and in vivo studies:

• Inhibits the Aromatase Enzyme (prevents testosterone from converting to estrogen at the genetic level, preventing both transcription and expression of Aromatase) [1-4]

• Acts similarly to Letrozole (a prescription Aromatase Inhibitor), and can destroy breast tumor tissue (gynecomastia) [1]

• Has anabolic properties (Inhibits the Glucocorticoid Receptor, thus allowing more muscle to be built)[4]

• Has Anti-Hypertensive properties [5]

• Improves Cognitive Function [5]

• Lowers LDL Cholesterol [6]

• Is a strong Anti-Oxidant (stronger than vitamin C or E) [6]

. Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor and a suppressor of aromatase expression. Cancer Res. 2006 Jun 1;66(11):5960-7.

2. Suppression of Estrogen biosynthesis by procyanidin dimmers in red wine and grape seeds. Cancer Res. 2003 Dec 1;63(23):8516-22.

3. Suppression of aromatase (estrogen synthetase) by red wine phytochemicals. Breast Cancer Res. Treat., 67: 133-146, 2001

4. Modulation of aromatase gene expression by grape seed extract. Ikuko Kijima, et al. City of Hope, Durante, CA.

5. Antihypertensive and cognitive effects of grape polyphenols in estrogen-depleted, female, spontaneously hypertensive rats. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2005 Sep;289(3):R771-5.

6. Concentrated red grape juice exerts antioxidant, hypolipidemic, and antiinflammatory effects in both hemodialysis patients and healthy subjects. Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jul;84(1):252-62.Am J Clin Nutr. 2006 Jul;84(1):252-62.

[Conpecia]

How to reduce Propecia/Finasteride side effects
I created a reply in another topic that I felt might be helpful to others using propecia.
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=68428&p=640985#p640985

Many of the side effects are caused by lowered testosterone levels, increased estrogen levels, or both. I address how you can solve these 2 issues in my reply to this topic.

Copy of my reply:

Originally Posted by ripple-effect
You would have to use an aromatase(increases estrogen) inhibitor along with a SHBG(lowers free T) inhibitor.

Free Testosterone wants to become one of these 3 things when it is floating around in your body:
1.) DHT
2.) estradiol
3.) bind to SHBG(Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

Since Propecia inhibits the production of DHT, the Free T will mainly only convert to estradiol(type of estrogen) or bind to SHBG. To prevent conversion of Free T into estradiol you would need to use an aromatase inhibitor. An effective natural aromatase inhibitor I would recommend is Grape Seed Extract. This should also help prevent some of the Propecia side effects such as gyno which is caused by increased estrogen levels. A potent brand of GSE I would recommend and use myself is Nature's Plus:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00014 ... B00014G47S

or Jarrow's formula is another potent brand I would highly recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013O ... B0013OXA2M

You also need to prevent Free T from binding to the SHBG. To accomplish this I would recommend increasing your protein intake and using Fish oil supplements. This should help prevent sexual dysfunction by increasing testosterone levels.

This should result in a greater increase of Free T in your system which has many great health benefits.
Nizoral 2%

Thanks champ i'm gonna order some grape seed extract and see if it helps with the estrogen levels.

[thechamp]

Cob what about this

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/store/triazole.html coupleing this with propecia?

[thechamp]

Cob got some more info

How to reduce Propecia/Finasteride side effects
I created a reply in another topic that I felt might be helpful to others using propecia.
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=68428&p=640985#p640985

Many of the side effects are caused by lowered testosterone levels, increased estrogen levels, or both. I address how you can solve these 2 issues in my reply to this topic.

Copy of my reply:

Originally Posted by ripple-effect
You would have to use an aromatase(increases estrogen) inhibitor along with a SHBG(lowers free T) inhibitor.

Free Testosterone wants to become one of these 3 things when it is floating around in your body:
1.) DHT
2.) estradiol
3.) bind to SHBG(Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

Since Propecia inhibits the production of DHT, the Free T will mainly only convert to estradiol(type of estrogen) or bind to SHBG. To prevent conversion of Free T into estradiol you would need to use an aromatase inhibitor. An effective natural aromatase inhibitor I would recommend is Grape Seed Extract. This should also help prevent some of the Propecia side effects such as gyno which is caused by increased estrogen levels. A potent brand of GSE I would recommend and use myself is Nature's Plus:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00014 ... B00014G47S

or Jarrow's formula is another potent brand I would highly recommend:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013O ... B0013OXA2M

You also need to prevent Free T from binding to the SHBG. To accomplish this I would recommend increasing your protein intake and using Fish oil supplements. This should help prevent sexual dysfunction by increasing testosterone levels.

This should result in a greater increase of Free T in your system which has many great health benefits.
Nizoral 2%

[Conpecia]

Pretty sure this is causing my nips to be sore. Really need to get my estrogen levels checked.