Aderans

[bigentries]

Is there a possibility that the results can be compounded?

The results are average at best, some people get better results with fin or minox at a lower cost

[Alf]

Is there a possibility that the results can be compounded?

The results are average at best, some people get better results with fin or minox at a lower cost

Someone earlier mentiond that Aderans researchers expect that it is compundable, question is how much.

[goingquick]

Someone earlier mentiond that Aderans researchers expect that it is compundable, question is how much.

Any source for that statement? If it's true the Aderans researchers expect it to be compoundable, that's great news.

[Alf]

Any source for that statement? If it's true the Aderans researchers expect it to be compoundable, that's great news.

I have it from the user Joker " But before I get too negative, I should mention that if this treatment is compoundable (and Doc Washenik says it should be) it could actually lead to some pretty good outcomes, especially when combined with transplants. "
Page 65.

I don't have any first source, but I guess Joker or someone else on the forum has.

[Desmond84]

OK guys, Prepare to get your minds BLOWN

Now, most of you would have read the stuff I posted a week ago about the reason why Aderans is using Dermal Papillae cells to treat baldness. Here's what I posted if you haven't:

Well, around 3 months ago I did a lot of research into what are Dermal papillae cells and dermal sheeth cup cells and why are we using them rather than the other 30 different cells around the hair follicles.

What I came up with was fascinating. here's some of those articles:

1) To date, we have only found Androgen receptors on the dermal papillae of hair follicles. Hence, the reason why Aderans most likely decided to use these cells! Here's the link:

http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v98/n6s/abs/5612065a.html

2) Dermal papillae cells in balding areas express a much larger number of androgen receptors compared to non-balding areas. Here's a study if you wanna read further:

http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/content/156/1/59.short

3) Here's the most AMAZING finding back in late 90's: "Dermal papillae extracted from occipital scalp hair follicles (donor area) lack Androgen receptors! Here's the link:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2133.1995.tb08706.x/abstract

That's why I think at least in theory, DHT-resistance may be possible!

Cheers

What I can't find out is:

1) How long do Dermal papillae last for before they have to be replaced with new ones?

2) How do Dermal papillae replicate? DO they replicate themselves or does a stem cell create more? If it's the latter, then we need regular injections of Aderans otherwise the stem cells would again produce DHT-sensitive Dermal papillae!

So here's the BIG news:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate. They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

This is the best news we could have had Why? Well what this means is that the effects of Aderans would be PERMANENT!

Once you have Dermal Papillae from occipital region (donor area) transplanted onto the top of your scalp, there are no longer sufficient Androgen receptors for DHT to damage your follicles; i.e. your hair will remain DHT-resistant for a substantial period of your life!

So, I believe in the future, hair transplant surgeons would simply refuse to perform fue/HST/etc until you have managed to immunise your remaining hair against DHT. Once immunised, they will then perform a high density transplant.

Here's some extra info on DP cells if you guys wanna read futher:

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/124/8/1179.full.pdf

We are so close brothers...I can smell it

[amibald]

OK guys, Prepare to get your minds BLOWN

Now, most of you would have read the stuff I posted a week ago about the reason why Aderans is using Dermal Papillae cells to treat baldness. Here's what I posted if you haven't:





So here's the BIG news:

"Dermal Papillae cells remain the same throughout your whole life. They don't die or replicate. They simply move up and down the hair follicle during Anagen & Catagen Phase."

This is the best news we could have had Why? Well what this means is that the effects of Aderans would be PERMANENT!

Once you have Dermal Papillae from occipital region (donor area) transplanted onto the top of your scalp, there are no longer sufficient Androgen receptors for DHT to damage your follicles; i.e. your hair will remain DHT-resistant for a substantial period of your life!

So, I believe in the future, hair transplant surgeons would simply refuse to perform fue/HST/etc until you have managed to immunise your remaining hair against DHT. Once immunised, they will then perform a high density transplant.

Here's some extra info on DP cells if you guys wanna read futher:

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/124/8/1179.full.pdf

We are so close brothers...I can smell it

Wouldn't the slick bald hair follicles still have androgen-sensitive DP cells, along with the transplanted ones? Why not remove the sensitive ones and then replace them?

Also, what happens to the hair follicles which have had their DP cells removed? I haven't read up on aderans really - are DP cells from donor area taken and them mutliplied, and then transplanted?

[Desmond84]

Wouldn't the slick bald hair follicles still have androgen-sensitive DP cells, along with the transplanted ones? Why not remove the sensitive ones and then replace them?

Also, what happens to the hair follicles which have had their DP cells removed? I haven't read up on aderans really - are DP cells from donor area taken and them mutliplied, and then transplanted?

Yes, exactly right! So, you will have TWO types of DP cells present in the root of the hair follicle:

1) Original DP cells that are sensitive to DHT --> these are shrinking and refuse to provide the growth factors and signals necessary to promote hair growth.

2) Transplanted DP cells that lack Androgen receptors --> these cells would aggregate to form fully functional DP which support a healthy hair growth cycle!

Here's a little excerpt from one of the publications I found:

"The treatment area would be miniaturized follicles that are cosmetically insignificant, and the strategy would be to rejuvenate miniaturized follicles by the insertion of hair-inductive DP cells. Because the cellular target in androgenetic alopecia is the dermal papilla, providing the follicle with new, androgen-insensitive DP cells might reactivate the follicle to form a normal (terminal) hair. "

This should answer most of your questions about what Aderans & Replicel are all about:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2884703/

This is a MUST read if you're planning on going down these paths once the treatments come out!

[Desmond84]

One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:
DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them. And regardless of which one comes out first we can jump on it straight away

[inspects]

One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:
DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them. And regardless of which one comes out first we can jump on it straight away

Nice find Desmond....Very Interesting....!!

I also believe the only real treatment for baldness will be stem cells.

Cheers,

-Dale-

[Pate]

As most of you heard on the presentation, Aderans has given up on reaching the "70% response rate" target and instead are looking for genetic markers that will indicate whether you're a responder or not.

What worries me is, genetic markers were NOT on their timeline schedule back in 2010. Does this mean they are lagging behind more than 1 year as initially thought?

I actually missed the significance of that when I watched the presentation first time around and went back to watch it again. Kind of disappointing.

So they've decided the response rate has less to do with the formulation of Ji Gami or the application of it, and more to do with a genetic pre-disposition of your cells to survive the replication process and still be inductive.

In that case it looks like the response rate of Aderans will not get higher than 60%.

40% failure rate is going to mean a lot of disappointed and out-of-pocket baldies. All we can do is hope we're in the lucky 60%.

On the plus side, I don't think the genetic markers will blow the timeline out any more. They have a lot of time on their hands after they inject people to wait for the 52 week mark - most of time spent in these trials is in the waiting for 12 months to pass. Sounds like they have been working on these marker assays concurrently.

[Artista]

Desmond, you diligent research has paid off for all of us. What you have brought to the forefront is a very logical theory based upon medical facts.Thank you brother Des'

[rdawg]

One other important information I found out is:

Dermal Papillae (DP) & Dermal sheath cup cells (DSC) are INTERCHANGEABLE.

Throughout the hair cycle, DP cells turn into DSC cells and vice versa. During growth DSC cells turn into DP cells to provide hair with more growth factors and during resting Phase some DP cells turn into DSC cells.

Now, here's the important bit:
DP cells are used by Aderans
DSC cells are used by Replicel.

So, they are practically the same treatment! We should be rooting for both of them. And regardless of which one comes out first we can jump on it straight away

So you're essentially saying Aderans or Replicel may have a permanent and better solution than Fin?

It doesnt seem like aderans has growth, but rather permanent maintence.

ALTHOUGH couple that with a stimulant(minoxidil+HSC) and that could be a huge and powerful combination.

What is the next step for aderans, do they have approval for phase III? or another Phase II?

[Breaking Bald]

So what exactly would these genetic markers be? So that means they will find out beforehand whether you will respond to the treatment? So you don't have to waste your money.

[Pate]

They said they will test for the markers after they take the biopsy. So you still need to get a 1 sq cm flap of skin taken off the back of your head and you'll still have a scar.

Presumably they will give you your money back if it turns out you don't have the markers.

But that'll depend on who's selling it. If it's one of these dodgy hair restoration clinics who will be falling over themselves to license Aderans' tech, they'll probably tell you you're a responder just because you have like one out of ten markers. Then you'll grow three new hairs and they'll use that as an excuse not to refund you.

That's what they do already when they presribe you minox and saw palmetto.

rdawg,

The markers information suggests it won't have maintenance if you're not a responder. Washenik didn't go into great details but he seems to be saying in that vid that if you don't have the genetic markers, the cells that are replicated aren't capable of generating hair.

This is probably why it took them so damn long to get through Phase II. They kept having to re-run year-long trials to try and find out why only 60% or less were responding. That's what they came up with.

[Desmond84]

So you're essentially saying Aderans or Replicel may have a permanent and better solution than Fin?

It doesnt seem like aderans has growth, but rather permanent maintence.

ALTHOUGH couple that with a stimulant(minoxidil+HSC) and that could be a huge and powerful combination.

What is the next step for aderans, do they have approval for phase III? or another Phase II?

Yeah, I guess if you look into their presentations they are always comparing their product to Propecia, so most likely their aim is to do what Propecia does but as a once off treatment which would be great!

Histogen should at least bump you up 1-2 norwoods once it's available though.

And if you're still not happy, you can cover the rest with a transplant