Further Follicept civil conversation

[David7]

Man you could me our man , go for it you have my support .

[TheUltimatePoet]

This is better. I like how this thread is going. We are doing something constructive.

I hope it works out, StayThick. I will look forward to seeing any reports you will have.

[just2hairs]

And what have they done to warrant full support? Why so much hype?

Skeptics would remain quiet if the "wait and see" crowd would remain quiet soon. Unwarranted hype hurts too. Nigam and the Chlorine guy took advantage of that in the past, it's easy to take advantage of people when there's a big group that attacks anyone that dares to question.

Being supportive and excited for a potentially effective treatment is not "so much hype". Follicept has not done anything to warrant anything otherwise. Labeling them scam is way off at this point. Follicept themselves have admitted not knowing if it will work or not. You can't just conveniently bring up Nigam and Chlorine guy as comparison because there are no similarities thus far.

[bigentries]

Being supportive and excited for a potentially effective treatment is not "so much hype". Follicept has not done anything to warrant anything otherwise. Labeling them scam is way off at this point. Follicept themselves have admitted not knowing if it will work or not. You can't just conveniently bring up Nigam and Chlorine guy as comparison because there are no similarities thus far.

Their website states things like "Safe. Effective. Affordable", "Follicept ™ grows hair even after you stop using it", and in the FAQ, they claim it works and it is safe.

Those are pretty bold claims, reading their site, they don't adress any uncertainty

Seriously, Devon bragged to Swooping that he would kiss his former bald spot. Is that how a professional trialling something that he doesn't even knows if it works should be behaving?

[TheUltimatePoet]

Their website looks like something that we could expect after a very successful trial, but on the other hand they are very open about the fact that they are still in the testing phase. From the FAQ:

Has it been tested in humans?
We are testing it right now, and should have initial results in mid-May. Papers suggest we could see results in as little as 12 days, and we will be uploading the before and after pictures as soon as we have them! We know, it's a big claim, and you are skeptical. We won't take your money until we prove it in the next several weeks and are confident we can give you an effective product.

As for safety; IG-1 is natural to the body and the amount they use in follicept is quite low and applied topically, so there is no real reason to suspect it poses any significant danger? I confess that I am no expert on this, but I have never heard anyone object to the safety aspect before. Anyone care to chime in on this? I just don't know.

Devon seems like a fun guy who likes to joke around, and I see no harm in it, though I understand how someone would find it unprofessional.


I just don't see any red "SCAM" lights flashing anywhere.

[follicept]

Their website states things like "Safe. Effective. Affordable", "Follicept ™ grows hair even after you stop using it", and in the FAQ, they claim it works and it is safe.

Those are pretty bold claims, reading their site, they don't adress any uncertainty

Seriously, Devon bragged to Swooping that he would kiss his former bald spot. Is that how a professional trialling something that he doesn't even knows if it works should be behaving?

I didn't brag to him, I made a bet with him that if it works, he has to kiss my former bald spot. Two very different things.

As for how we communicate- our corporate culture and identity and positioning is up to us. I love to joke around and am very easygoing. I take life and this work very seriously, but it doesn't mean we can't all have fun in the process! I have the full support of Dr. Hsu in how I and we communicate. If you want a stodgy company who doesn't talk to you until we want your money and routes you through call centers for any customer service issues, we can be that. But we don't want that and I don't think you do either. Success or failure, is it not cool to be a part of this? I know I am having fun, even though it's incredibly hard. Our whole company is what Dr. Hsu likes to call a "grand experiment".

[SOTF]

Every year there is a new product people latch onto. Remember Dr. Nigam, the great hope? He had so many wrapped around his finger. He even took on several "seniority" members - some of which, to my understanding, were harmed in the process.

To the guy above me - how are you making statements related to safety - followed up by admitting you have no idea? Do you not see the issue in that? Desperation is a hell of a thing. This place reeks of it.

[just2hairs]

Their website states things like "Safe. Effective. Affordable", "Follicept ™ grows hair even after you stop using it", and in the FAQ, they claim it works and it is safe.

Those are pretty bold claims, reading their site, they don't adress any uncertainty

Seriously, Devon bragged to Swooping that he would kiss his former bald spot. Is that how a professional trialling something that he doesn't even knows if it works should be behaving?

Those claims are based on their scientific findings. The trial results (soon to be disclosed) will prove or disprove those findings. How else do you expect them to market their product?

I'm done going back and forth. I can't wait for the trial results...that's all i'm doing and nothing you say will sway me or anyone. If they fail, as long as they don't do any funny business, i'm still in support of them...GO FOLLICEPT!

[Swooping]

I'll explain it one more time because people don't seem to understand.

Growth factors have been present in Europe & North America for quite some time in cosmetics.

The IGF-1 that follicept is using is far from novel. It has been around for ages. Why do you think the FDA & European law "permits" these growth factors? Because they have already reviewed this ages ago. Check for instance here;

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cosmetics/cosing/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.details&id=85149&back=1

In the meantime tons of products are on the market that you can buy which implement those (various) growth factors.

For instance this product which has various growth factors in 10PPM concentration for hair too;

http://www.amazon.com/Dermaheal-Cosmeceuticals-Anti-Hair-Solution-0-84351/dp/B00CL7WMCY/ref=pd_sim_bt_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z9RTCRKN2TFFPGT8H9J

You want EGF as a growth factor?

Here you go! http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal...or-BT-EGF.html


Or you want another product which implements those growth factors? You want another one specifically for hair?

Here you go!; http://www.aespio.com/sgf-57.asp?mm=1&sm=18

Here another one for your skin with IGF-1 in it and tons of other growth factors. The product sheet; http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed...4-db8dd6041b43

Devon even admitted AFAIK that their unique selling point is their delivery & pulse therapy. Not the IGF-1 itself.

Correct, Devon?

[RGPHILPA]

Those claims are based on their scientific findings. The trial results (soon to be disclosed) will prove or disprove those findings. How else do you expect them to market their product?

I'm done going back and forth. I can't wait for the trial results...that's all i'm doing and nothing you say will sway me or anyone. If they fail, as long as they don't do any funny business, i'm still in support of them...GO FOLLICEPT!

You do the science, then you make the claims. That's how it works. Not the other way around. There is absolutely zero scientific evidence that it will do as they say in humans. None. They haven't run a single human experiment, so how is that they're advertising it already as "effective". They have a mouse with some questionable fuzz on it. To make the leap from that to "it's effective, safe and affordable" is ridiculous. Not too mention highly unethical behavior.

They are not "findings" as you call them. What they are is pure unadulterated speculation and hype. There is a huge discrepancy between what Devon has said and what they advertise on their website. Which is what the bulk of the complaints against them have been about - and completely warranted btw.

[bigentries]

I didn't brag to him, I made a bet with him that if it works, he has to kiss my former bald spot. Two very different things.

As for how we communicate- our corporate culture and identity and positioning is up to us. I love to joke around and am very easygoing. I take life and this work very seriously, but it doesn't mean we can't all have fun in the process! I have the full support of Dr. Hsu in how I and we communicate. If you want a stodgy company who doesn't talk to you until we want your money and routes you through call centers for any customer service issues, we can be that. But we don't want that and I don't think you do either. Success or failure, is it not cool to be a part of this? I know I am having fun, even though it's incredibly hard. Our whole company is what Dr. Hsu likes to call a "grand experiment".

A bet usually involves both sides. What do you expect would to be a fair answer from Swooping?

Sorry, but that sounds like bragging to me, do you see cancer researches betting to skeptics that they would kiss an extracted tumor?

That's why I believe you are into something. So, this thing doesn't work. How are people going to take you seriously after that? You basically mocked a potential customer, made bold claims way before you got results. I can't see a professional making those mistakes unless he is 100% sure this is going to work or he'll be 100% sure to make it look like it's working

[TheUltimatePoet]

To the guy above me - how are you making statements related to safety - followed up by admitting you have no idea? Do you not see the issue in that? Desperation is a hell of a thing. This place reeks of it.

I didn't make any statements. I just did some reasoning formulated as a question.

[follicept]

I'll explain it one more time because people don't seem to understand.

Growth factors have been present in Europe & North America for quite some time in cosmetics.

The IGF-1 that follicept is using is far from novel. It has been around for ages. Why do you think the FDA & European law "permits" these growth factors? Because they have already reviewed this ages ago. Check for instance here;

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cosmetics/cosing/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.details&id=85149&back=1

In the meantime tons of products are on the market that you can buy which implement those (various) growth factors.

For instance this product which has various growth factors in 10PPM concentration for hair too;

http://www.amazon.com/Dermaheal-Cosmeceuticals-Anti-Hair-Solution-0-84351/dp/B00CL7WMCY/ref=pd_sim_bt_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Z9RTCRKN2TFFPGT8H9J

You want EGF as a growth factor?

Here you go! http://www.skinactives.com/Epidermal...or-BT-EGF.html


Or you want another product which implements those growth factors? You want another one specifically for hair?

Here you go!; http://www.aespio.com/sgf-57.asp?mm=1&sm=18

Here another one for your skin with IGF-1 in it and tons of other growth factors. The product sheet; http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed...4-db8dd6041b43

Devon even admitted AFAIK that their unique selling point is their delivery & pulse therapy. Not the IGF-1 itself.

Correct, Devon?

Correct. IGF-1 has been on the market for a while. We have a unique, novel way to deliver it in low concentrations (safety) directly to the follicles via our topical delivery technology (effectiveness). We didn't develop the IGF-1. In our view, we are solving a missing puzzle piece between IGF-1 being supported as important in regulating hair growth, and the current inability to deliver it in doses that are both low enough to be safe and local enough to be effective.

[follicept]

A bet usually involves both sides. What do you expect would to be a fair answer from Swooping?

Sorry, but that sounds like bragging to me, do you see cancer researches betting to skeptics that they would kiss an extracted tumor?

That's why I believe you are into something. So, this thing doesn't work. How are people going to take you seriously after that? You basically mocked a potential customer, made bold claims way before you got results. I can't see a professional making those mistakes unless he is 100% sure this is going to work or he'll be 100% sure to make it look like it's working

He accepted it, saying he would pay to fly me out haha. No need to defend him- he is plenty capable. If I lose the bet, he gets to be right for the rest of his life and shame me for my efforts. Not a bad deal.

Cancer researchers is a bit of a different proposition than what we have hear. Scope, level, patient involvement, commercialization, on and on. And they don't have people calling them scammers as they complete their work. (except the people who claim you can cure cancer with green tea and that kind of stuff.)

If it fails, we have myriad other compounds we could test. We are close to a deal with big pharma. We try the next thing. How do people take me seriously? They will see my dedication and accomplishments in achieving what I/we have so far, and my integrity in admitting a failure and moving on to the next thing. What else do people want? I am not worried about that. Swooping is a very unlikely potential customer, and I haven't really mocked him. We have engaged in spirited witty banter, which I still feel is good natured for both of us. I don't think he feels mocked, and sorry if he does. I think he feels like I am the idiot and he has the moral high ground. An opinion to which he is entitled and that I am working to disprove via these trials. He has agreed that time will tell.

Nothing in the world gets done if you wait for 100% certainty. The most important thing to me is my conscience. I may not be able to convince you of that, but your opinion is none of my business. I have to lay my head on my pillow at night, and manipulating photos and people would not allow me to do that. I would much rather fail, lick my wounds, and move on.

[StayThick]

Correct. IGF-1 has been on the market for a while. We have a unique, novel way to deliver it in low concentrations (safety) directly to the follicles via our topical delivery technology (effectiveness). We didn't develop the IGF-1. In our view, we are solving a missing puzzle piece between IGF-1 being supported as important in regulating hair growth, and the current inability to deliver it in doses that are both low enough to be safe and local enough to be effective.

Devon, what is the best way for us to relay contact information in regards to possibly being involved in the trials? Especially considering I'm local here in FL to your facility? I still at this point have not heard from you. Is this still a possibility and on the table at the moment? I would love to be a part of this and track my results, including my progress with this forum since this is the only hairloss forum I am a part of and have been for quite some time.

Let me know what you would like me to do to relay my contact information over to you personally. Through your website, etc. Thanks.