follicept - what's this?

[grayfoxxx]

Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.

omg... that's a really bad news for me

[Keki]

omg... that's a really bad news for me

It's not a bad news at all, if they succeed to give the same effect of minox you can free yourself from lotions for the rest of your life, i image for people who travel a lot using minox and the pill everyday it's a nightmare

[hellouser]

Hey everybody,

It is Tuesday and here with an update as promised. As usual, a few things to address:

First, excluding the attacks, the thread has been very helpful to us in getting up to speed on the history and science of hair loss, as we are relatively new to this field, so thank you. Even swooping and arashi have had some positive contributions, so we believe everyone is valuable here. Even if the ideas ultimately don't pan out or are disproven, healthy discussion is always beneficial.

Kind of along those lines, I can confirm that sdsurfin does have an NDA with us and his ideas have been very helpful. Again, some didn't pan out, but they got us (well, really Dr. Hsu) to think and investigate further and solidify our theories on this.

Further, some have questioned our document prepared by one of our employees (who is now off on his way to MD/PhD program) and we have learned a lot since then. I will be taking that down, and Dr. Hsu is creating a PPT for a different purpose that will clearly explain our theories and the pathways we think this will take to effect hair loss. Some will understand and agree, some will hate it, but you will know where we stand and why we think that works. I will link that on the Follicept site by the end of the week most likely. In talking to Dr. Hsu just now (again more depth on this when we post the document, and I am still learning the science) we think this will be importantly a pulse therapy- use it 3x/week for a month, and it should induce anagen phase for perhaps even 1 year or longer. This will likely mean a higher upfront price, but still saving money long term vs. minox and other treatments.

Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.

As for a forum trial, Dr. Hsu said it would not be prudent for reasons others here have posted: from the Hippocratic Oath- "First, do no harm." Since this is still being tested, we need to control the environment and application to ensure safety. Assuming we get some positive results, we will launch the indiegogo at around the same time as the clinical trial, and those interested on the forum can obtain it and post their results to boost confidence and hopefully the performance of the indiegogo and sway those who are waiting for more proof.

Now, for the big news. Other ingredients have been ordered (slight hitch with another supplier, fixed now), and will arrive tomorrow and Thursday. We will work all weekend to prepare the batch, and I will begin this coming Monday. I will film the application (maybe even do it live if I can find a way to broadcast? Anyone know a way?), and from then on do #folliceptfridays with updates on progress- video and pics, again maybe live.

I am starting a new thread exclusively for trial updates and discussion, let's keep all the flaming and trolling on this one. Let the naysaying commence!

You'll want at least some individuals trying out different protocals. Minox and Fin dont work very well on their own, but when combined together results are sometimes very good. There are many pathways of MPB, so limiting everyone to IGF-1 is selling yourself short.

[NOhairNOlife]

Hey everybody,

Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.

Hey Devon, great news, that things are progressing. Exciting times, either way of the outcome. At least this gives us a glimmer of hope.

Regarding this being a stand-alone therapy. I can't see there being an issue using finesteride as it blocks DHT, which follicept isn't doing.

[follicept]

Hey Devon, great news, that things are progressing. Exciting times, either way of the outcome. At least this gives us a glimmer of hope.

Regarding this being a stand-alone therapy. I can't see there being an issue using finesteride as it blocks DHT, which follicept isn't doing.

Thanks! It is indeed a different pathway/target, but like I said, we think it is a whole big process we are affecting. Assuming it works, we can't make any claims for people using combination therapies, because we have no idea how the interaction will affect it. We will be starting with treatment-naive people. Perhaps 6 months or so will be enough to clear out the system and be the same as treatment naive. Of course people are going to do what they want, but we can't be held responsible results outside the conditions we test...

[grayfoxxx]

It's not a bad news at all, if they succeed to give the same effect of minox you can free yourself from lotions for the rest of your life, i image for people who travel a lot using minox and the pill everyday it's a nightmare

Ok, but I'll have to wait to lose all the benefits of fin and minox before starting Follicept, if i understand correctly. It would takes months and my situation is already tragic despite the cures, I dare not even imagine how my situation could be without them. This thing really scares me.

[Swooping]

You might used that as some kind a test for Devon, but other people are quoting that post as a proof that IGF-1 is bad for hair.


On what evidence do you base that conclusion ?

Well IGF-1 administration which goes systemic and thus circulates may be bad so these studies may have merit. But more so in the fact that IGF-1 systemic can indirectly lower your SHBG value and so it can increase your FAI (free androgen index) and subsequently lower your estrogen which is known to be hair follicle protective (as an example).

AGA first upstream signals = Androgens > AR

If you are asking me what evidence I have to argue that circulating IGF-1 itself directly can't influence AGA? That is as I mentioned from the fact that people who suffer from Laron Syndrome (very low to none IGF-1 levels) & Acromegaly (very high IGF-1 levels).

If for instance high or low circulating levels IGF-1 would directly influence AGA we would have prove of that from these conditions. As you can read on Follicept their website they argue that a feedback loop consists through the FOXO1 receptor. But if this were to be true this would be likely apparent in people suffering from Acromegaly. Meaning that they wouldn't show AGA or would be immune to AGA. Yet this isn't true. In science observational evidence like this is extremely important. This is what led to the development of finasteride for example by Merck.

Then again people with Laron Syndrome have pretty damn luxurious hair. It's hard for me to find a balding guy with Laron Syndrome. Ironic, as they have very low to zero circulating levels of IGF-1 due to a genetic defect. But then again they can develop AGA too.

Then again taken all this even that mice develop hair with full knockout of IGF-1 makes me think that it's not going to do much. Ironically it will probably perhaps shift your telogen/anagen ratio and be more beneficial for Telogen Effluvium for example. However these growth % increases ain't going to make anyone happy.

For AGA itself it isn't going to do much for anyone cosmetically, that's my opinion. Not only from the scientific level but also from a logical level considering with IGF-1 experiments in the past. Not something to be excited about, far from it actually. Is it going to even come close to minoxidil? NO WAY

But we'll see.

[Illusion]

Regarding use of other therapies, and the question about shedding: this is intended to be a standalone therapy, and we have not tested other therapies with it. Given that minox and fin are after similar things, it is important to use Follicept on its own. Thus, users should either be treatment naive or "baseline" which means letting other treatments be washed out of your system, and yes, the dreaded shedding. I know this will cause a firestorm and ask that you refer to the document I will post later this week to understand why. The layman's/Devon version is that we need to let the follicles/DP go to their natural, inhibited, shrunken state so that we can wake them up again and induce anagen phase for the long term.

Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.

Anyway I'm curious to know why this is needed, but convincing people to do this does require outstanding results. You're basically saying "Choose Follicept over two proven hair loss treatments that work pretty decently in conjunction for the majority of people."

I can't believe i made the right choice waiting a month before treatments, i hope it works

You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.



EDIT: Also, Arashi hitting the nail on its head in the other thread about Follicept. I'm posting it here just for the sake of that thread, although the sake of that thread is already kind of ruined by Devon itself because - like Arashi said - he started a thread for results while they haven't even started their testing.

For some reason it indeed starts to seem more and more hype-ish to me. I'll try to stay neutral while waiting on the results though.

[thejack]

Ok, but I'll have to wait to lose all the benefits of fin and minox before starting Follicept, if i understand correctly. It would takes months and my situation is already tragic despite the cures, I dare not even imagine how my situation could be without them. This thing really scares me.

It only takes 2 weeks for finasteride to leave the system doesn't it?

[Jagger]

Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.

Anyway I'm curious to know why this is needed, but convincing people to do this does require outstanding results. You're basically saying "Choose Follicept over two proven hair loss treatments that work pretty decently in conjunction for the majority of people."





You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.

Quite curious indeed. The paper later this week should shed some light on it, but it is definitely a strange requirement. I imagine many people on this forum will probably go forward with fin+Follicept anyway (assuming it works well), perhaps this is just their current protocol given that they want to test the efficacy at baseline first. Unless Follicept has some effect on DHT I don't know why fin should be affected.

Then again I know pretty much nothing about this stuff.

[follicept]

Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.

Anyway I'm curious to know why this is needed, but convincing people to do this does require outstanding results. You're basically saying "Choose Follicept over two proven hair loss treatments that work pretty decently in conjunction for the majority of people."





You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.



EDIT: Also, Arashi hitting the nail on its head in the other thread about Follicept. I'm posting it here just for the sake of that thread, although the sake of that thread is already kind of ruined by Devon itself because - like Arashi said - he started a thread for results while they haven't even started their testing.

For some reason it indeed starts to seem more and more hype-ish to me. I'll try to stay neutral while waiting on the results though.

Not saying what people HAVE to do, I am just trying to be incredibly upfront in our claims and our testing conditions. People will do what they will do, but given the complex nature of AGA, if there is some interaction such that, for example, fin blocks the way Follicept works (not saying this is the case- we have no clue), and people use both and then complain we have some crap product, that isn't fair to us, either (assuming it works).

I just want to lay out there very clearly, here are our testing conditions and claims.

If you want, go ahead and delete the other thread and I will restart on Monday. Was just doing it while I was thinking about it to lessen how much I have to set up on Monday. These things take time, a luxury I have little of lately. Trying to keep my own momentum going.

[Keki]

You didn't. Furthermore, you're probably going to have to wait at least a couple of months more (which would be an absolute best case scenario) before you can use this, so enjoy the wait while your follicles are dying.

few weeks of waiting being out of everything is better then full commit now and using fina and minox for sure, i don't even know if i'm a decent responder, if the results are positive i will be ready and in perfect shape to be a follicept responder, if negative i will take fina and minox at the end of may , no big deal, the bad call was waiting for treatments till now that i'm nw2.5-3

[hellouser]

It only takes 2 weeks for finasteride to leave the system doesn't it?

7-10 days. Typically around 7 days, which is why spencer kobren has more or less maintained at a dosage of once a week.

[DanWS]

Well this comes as quite a surprise. Dropping your whole regime in order to start a new treatment which is considered a cosmetic? Sounds pretty risky to me. This sets the bar a lot higher (in my eyes at least) because now it has to outperform finasteride COMBINED with minoxidil. Last time I heard something about follicept in combination with other treatments, only minoxidil had to be dropped and nothing was said about finasteride.

Yeah I agree, I'm pretty bummed to hear that using the treatment would mean having to drop fin, which I am reluctant to do. I wasn't expecting to hear that, and yes it does set the bar higher for Follicept now, no doubt. I would like to hear more regarding this from Follicept's part, as like Illusion mentioned, I'd only heard anything about dropping minox (which I don't use) for the treatment until just now.

[Helix]

Well IGF-1 administration which goes systemic and thus circulates may be bad so these studies may have merit. But more so in the fact that IGF-1 systemic can indirectly lower your SHBG value and so it can increase your FAI (free androgen index) and subsequently lower your estrogen which is known to be hair follicle protective (as an example).

AGA first upstream signals = Androgens > AR

If you are asking me what evidence I have to argue that circulating IGF-1 itself directly can't influence AGA? That is as I mentioned from the fact that people who suffer from Laron Syndrome (very low to none IGF-1 levels) & Acromegaly (very high IGF-1 levels).

.

No, I am asking what evidence do you have that only IGF-1 produced from within the DP in the micro environment of the hair follicle may have an effect ? Do you base that simply on the fact that people with high circulating IGF-1 levels also lose hair ?