WCHR 2014 Presentations (Community-funded)

[sdsurfin]

just another thought, too:
what would happen if you extract a graft (in an FUE session), and fill the hole with a DP spheroid? would there be a greater chance of donor regeneration (even with spheroids of only 40% gene expression)? if i'm not wrong here, this isn't exactly what nigam tried. he only tried to inject 2d cells for regeneration, and some 3d spheroids into the bald recipient site.

but did anyone ever try to repair an FUE extraction hole with a DP spheroid? in theory i see a goog chance here for some regeneration... at least better as with acell or pilofocus

I asked Dr. wesley this a few months ago, and he said that it was an interesting idea and could be used possibly in the future. he still has a ways to go refining his physical technique with pilofocus. bottom line is no one is going to mess with implanting DP shperoids in the western world until further trials are evaluated and completed. I think a lot of people are waiting to see how that taiwan study pans out. my guess is that it will not be a huge success, but might show some kind of growth of weaker hairs. I think that from what we've been told, a higher degree of gene expression retention needs to be maintained to really get things working like they used to.

In reply to your last posts joachim, i'm not sure you're correctly assessing what "from scratch" DP cells are. The fact that new DP cells could THEORETICALLY be made from ips cells (Dr. xu has not done this yet, although he said it is prob possible) does not necessarily make them act differently than other DP cells. Since they have not been made yet, no one knows to what degree they will be inductive or prone to aggregate and make follicles. There is the advantage of not having to rapidly expand them (and thus maybe not lose as much gene expression), which is why Xu wants to do this. However, that does not for sure mean that they will act like healthy DP cells in a non balding scalp. My guess is that in order for a real treatment or "cure" to exist, one of these teams is going to need to fabricate entire follicles in a lab setting and implant the entire follicle germ, with fat cells etc, and not just a shperoid. How the DP cells will be made/expanded/etc is up in the air, as Gardner was explaining, we do not know if or who will figure out how to make working DP spheroids, or if we will need to make DP cells from scratch instead.

I think funding whoever needs to be funded is crucial. Xu said he aims to create a whole follicle and could do it in ten years time with more funding. he said 2M would make a huge difference. This might seem like a drop in a bucket, but it is actually a huge amount for a research team to receive. The guys who just started to figure out how to make lab blood (no blood type needed for transfusions) just received 2M, and that was touted as a huge amount of funding. and you can imagine how many people want to see that happen, its implications are huge for accidents etc etc.

I do however think that as far as potential funders are concerned, baldness might be the #1 cause out there if there's is a concerted initiative. people are vain, most men go bald, and most everyone doesnt like it. the market is enormous, and the research going into it is actually huge compared to any other non life-threatening thing out there. the fact is science is expensive and most people and govts with tons of money do not put it into any kind of science or any other useful pursuit. mostly money gets used to make more money and keep the rich richer. the funding issue is not native to baldness research.

[joachim]

??

So, we'll know if it works after 2016/2017?

i think so, yes. or when is the planned end of their trial? i thought i read 2016 somewhere but i'm sure they will have delays. they didn't even start yet, did they?
i assume we can add 1 year delay, so we'll have some info in 2017 then.

[joachim]

I asked Dr. wesley this a few months ago, and he said that it was an interesting idea and could be used possibly in the future. he still has a ways to go refining his physical technique with pilofocus. bottom line is no one is going to mess with implanting DP shperoids in the western world until further trials are evaluated and completed. I think a lot of people are waiting to see how that taiwan study pans out. my guess is that it will not be a huge success, but might show some kind of growth of weaker hairs. I think that from what we've been told, a higher degree of gene expression retention needs to be maintained to really get things working like they used to.

In reply to your last posts joachim, i'm not sure you're correctly assessing what "from scratch" DP cells are. The fact that new DP cells could THEORETICALLY be made from ips cells (Dr. xu has not done this yet, although he said it is prob possible) does not necessarily make them act differently than other DP cells. Since they have not been made yet, no one knows to what degree they will be inductive or prone to aggregate and make follicles. There is the advantage of not having to rapidly expand them (and thus maybe not lose as much gene expression), which is why Xu wants to do this. However, that does not for sure mean that they will act like healthy DP cells in a non balding scalp. My guess is that in order for a real treatment or "cure" to exist, one of these teams is going to need to fabricate entire follicles in a lab setting and implant the entire follicle germ, with fat cells etc, and not just a shperoid. How the DP cells will be made/expanded/etc is up in the air, as Gardner was explaining, we do not know if or who will figure out how to make working DP spheroids, or if we will need to make DP cells from scratch instead.

I think funding whoever needs to be funded is crucial. Xu said he aims to create a whole follicle and could do it in ten years time with more funding. he said 2M would make a huge difference. This might seem like a drop in a bucket, but it is actually a huge amount for a research team to receive. The guys who just started to figure out how to make lab blood (no blood type needed for transfusions) just received 2M, and that was touted as a huge amount of funding. and you can imagine how many people want to see that happen, its implications are huge for accidents etc etc.

I do however think that as far as potential funders are concerned, baldness might be the #1 cause out there if there's is a concerted initiative. people are vain, most men go bald, and most everyone doesnt like it. the market is enormous, and the research going into it is actually huge compared to any other non life-threatening thing out there. the fact is science is expensive and most people and govts with tons of money do not put it into any kind of science or any other useful pursuit. mostly money gets used to make more money and keep the rich richer. the funding issue is not native to baldness research.

it MUST be possible to create DP cells from iPS cells, as every cell in the human body is created from this cells when a baby is born. iPS cells differentiate into every human cell step by step.

i think we urgently need a kind of road map from Dr. Xu. we have to know what are his next steps, based on what theories, etc.
once everybody understands his logic and theories and once we are convinced, then crowdfunding is easy.

can you ask Dr. Xu about such a road map? what tasks have to be accomplished to go towards the goal, step by step? if he can give us some explanations i can put that into a graphic. we really need to be proactive here. we should be able to summarize all facts within let's say the next 2 or 3 months, and then start something.
the good thing (hopefully) is that when we manage to crowdfund Dr. Xu we should have much more transparency to get some insight in all the processes and steps.

[JJJJrS]

Forums create the illusion of a very small audience. There are far more people who only read threads in the Bald Truth Forum than there are who both read and post comments. My doctor's rep signature contains my email address and phone number. I receive a steady flow of emails and calls from forum visitors (seldom posters) interested in information about currently available treatments and regenerative products. The current research is very interesting and will hopefully be useful down the road, but many men I hear from aren't hanging their hopes on it. They want to know what can be done now with currently available treatments. I believe current research can be incorporated into existing treatments making them more effective. Every week we have a number of minimal depth donor extraction sites that in my opinion, provide one of the best environments for regenerative advances. People often focus down a narrow path even when multiple viable options are available for improving the state of hair loss prevention and hair restoration.

When I have time I ask patients about their hair care regimen. Whether they use Rogaine, Propecia, Avodart etc. I also ask whether they visit the hair loss forums. If they do, I ask which ones and if they post. Approximately 90% tell me they have either visited forums at one time or regularly visit hair loss forums. A few of our patients post. The number one reason I commonly hear patients explain why they don't post, relates to the time and energy wasted on pissing matches. Pissing matches do a disservice to the forum as well as hair loss sufferers.

As I mentioned, many men are tired of being bald and want to know what can be done for them now. So if what I post disturbs you, don't read my posts.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
forhair.com
Cole Hair Transplant
1070 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
email 35YrsAfter at chuck@forhair.com
The contents of my posts are my opinions and not medical advice
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions. Ask for Chuck

That's nice but there's not a single shred of evidence that ACell has any positive effect on hair.

[sdsurfin]

it MUST be possible to create DP cells from iPS cells, as every cell in the human body is created from this cells when a baby is born. iPS cells differentiate into every human cell step by step.

i think we urgently need a kind of road map from Dr. Xu. we have to know what are his next steps, based on what theories, etc.
once everybody understands his logic and theories and once we are convinced, then crowdfunding is easy.

can you ask Dr. Xu about such a road map? what tasks have to be accomplished to go towards the goal, step by step? if he can give us some explanations i can put that into a graphic. we really need to be proactive here. we should be able to summarize all facts within let's say the next 2 or 3 months, and then start something.
the good thing (hopefully) is that when we manage to crowdfund Dr. Xu we should have much more transparency to get some insight in all the processes and steps.

Absolutely agreed, I am waiting on him. He needs to see if crowdfunding is even allowed and has asked his university. If he doesn't work with us soon then we should crowdfund Gardner's or lausters team or someone else (i liked the idea of finding someone who wants to 3D print a follicle. joachim maybe get on that? or someone else? The techy aspect of this is I think a huge draw for crowdfunding and media attention). Otherwise it should be a US or UK team not affiliated with a company. No one is going to want to send their money to china or taiwan even if the research is legit, and companies can take care of themselves as far as finding money. Xu's team is perfect, Im not sure why it's taking so long for his uni to reply. We could also see if Xu is willing to work as a consultant/partner with a 3D printing research team to use his knowledge to make follicles. he might be down if the money is there.

[joachim]

Absolutely agreed, I am waiting on him. He needs to see if crowdfunding is even allowed and has asked his university. If he doesn't work with us soon then we should crowdfund Gardner's or lausters team or someone else (i liked the idea of finding someone who wants to 3D print a follicle. joachim maybe get on that? or someone else? The techy aspect of this is I think a huge draw for crowdfunding and media attention). Otherwise it should be a US or UK team not affiliated with a company. No one is going to want to send their money to china or taiwan even if the research is legit, and companies can take care of themselves as far as finding money. Xu's team is perfect, Im not sure why it's taking so long for his uni to reply. We could also see if Xu is willing to work as a consultant/partner with a 3D printing research team to use his knowledge to make follicles. he might be down if the money is there.

yes, i'm trying to bring the 3D printing idea forward and at least check the technical feasibility of the mechanical aspects. I already contacted a big company and will hopefully receive some answers soon.

would be fantastic if we could have Xu for this.
by the way where is Xu located? and in which university?

i also think if we can start the 3D printing experiment this will create some good public attention and will be a good marketing for the 3D printing company itself.

[sdsurfin]

yes, i'm trying to bring the 3D printing idea forward and at least check the technical feasibility of the mechanical aspects. I already contacted a big company and will hopefully receive some answers soon.

would be fantastic if we could have Xu for this.
by the way where is Xu located? and in which university?

i also think if we can start the 3D printing experiment this will create some good public attention and will be a good marketing for the 3D printing company itself.

this presentation is great

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHbSbpWr2bw

really good summary of where they are at with DP culturing and trichogenicity maintenance. Obviously there is a long way to go before they perfect their methods of maintaining human DP expression, but the methods are clearly being developed and figured out.


good work with the 3D printing. The problem is that until they figure out how to make the correct DP components, 3D printing might be kinda shooting in the dark. no use printing the materials if they are not good materials. i think dr. gardner knows what hes talking about when he says we're not there yet. I really think funding Xu would be a good idea, or funding Dr. Gardner, but he seemed hesitant and hopefully he has enough funding.

[hellouser]

Oh damn... considering Replicel's stem cell method is the closest of any for release, I wonder if this would work. A ridiculously simple approach too.

Oh, and of course... much more interesting than Acell, LOL.

[hellouser]

lol.

does that mean you agree with the idea that unlimited available DP cells derived from iPS cells are a big deal?

Sure, but I'm leaning more towards running at least a Phase I clinical trial with existing 3D culturing method of DP cells. The hell are we waiting for, seriously? We have something they all say creates follicles to some degree without depleting donor.

[joachim]

Sure, but I'm leaning more towards running at least a Phase I clinical trial with existing 3D culturing method of DP cells. The hell are we waiting for, seriously? We have something they all say creates follicles to some degree without depleting donor.

that's true. if i only could have the induced fluffy hair of all those mice =)
thus, the taiwanese trial will be crucial. but still soooo far away. get some volunteers now and inject some DP spheroids. imagine, if it turns out that the 40% gene expression is already enough to create some nice hair.

although all these video presentations seem to show some good approaches to make better DP cells, i'm still wondering about all the recent news like the chinese one which claimed to have retained the whole gene expression. also, i'm hoping for a summary from desmond as he said several times that it seems many teams have figured out how to overcome the DP culturing problems. i don't want to believe that we only reached 40% like Dr. Gardner mentioned. but unfortunately all the video presentations tell that.

didn't desmond download the complete paper about those chinese culturing technique? he even told us that the chinese are totally aware of the method used at the taiwan university and therefore they tried to beat them. i don't know what to believe. on the one side there is Dr. gardner with jahoda, on the other side there are some asian teams with their statements, and somewhere in the middle is desmond =)

[joachim]

wait a second.

i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?

isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.

am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?

[hellouser]

wait a second.

i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?

isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.

am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?

Nigam injected animal serum into his patients. Every individual from the forums who had work done with him had failed results. Vivek Nigam should be in JAIL.

[Haircure]

wait a second.

i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?

isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.

am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?

Just to add, Nigam isn't even a real doctor, and basically everything he has ever claimed or done has been a scam and has failed. I'm not sure you guys know this about India, but it's an incredibly corrupt nation, and I mean on all levels of infrastructure. Scamming, bribery, and false advertisements are rampant throughout, and it is very easy to bribe officials for licences, permits, and official documentation's. Just a small example of this can be found when obtaining a drivers licence (though you could really drive without one), you literally can go to the Licensing office and pay something like 500 rupees and get an official licence.

[joachim]

i know the stories about nigam. and yes, i have to admit he really should be in jail by now. i wonder why he isn't yet.

so what alternatives do we have? we need someone who is able to replicate some of those dp cell culturing tricks. located somewhere on a far far away island or so.

[sdsurfin]

wait a second.

i really don't want to mention his name that often, but seriously, what about nigam?

isn't he able to exactly do the protocol from jahoda/gardner and inject the 3D spheroids with 40% gene expression? and practically, doing the same thing like in the taiwan trials?
but he shouldn't dare to inject other crap like he does usually. and not mix it with donor doubling, prp, etc.
it should be a safe experiment and only follow the exact same protocol from the researchers.

am i missing something? isn't nigam able to replicate the methods exactly?
are we really supposed to wait 2 or 3 years to see the outcome of the taiwanese trials?

No more talk of Nigam, seriously. he's a hack and way behind knowledge-wise compared to the real pros.

Also, no chinese team EVER claimed 100% gene expression retention. the only thing we know about the chinese team is that they improved gene expression similarly to the other teams. they are using methods that are similar to the last presentation by the japanese guy. no one except for desmond ever claimed otherwise, and as useful and enthusiastic as he is, the dude gets all hyped up and says things that are taken out of context and inflated.


also hellouser- no one is doing a tril except for the taiwanese because it is NOT READY. get it through your head man, no one is out to slow things down or to stagnate. everyone wants progress. If you watch those presentations you can see that human DP cels are simply not making good hair yet. THe difference between the way that mouse DPs induce hair and the way that human ones do (even when gene retention techniques are used) is staggering. Before they start injecting those things into people, they need to figure out how to make them actually work well. Also, did you maybe notice that the grafting techniques that they have basically form a crazy clump of hair in the mouse skin, hairs that go every which way, and are not suitable for duplicating in a person? I certainly would not let anyone inject that shit into me the way it is being done now, and i dont know why anyone else would.

Im curious to know how the team in taiwan is doing it, but im guessing its with sick people and they are probably doing a similar grafting procedure. in any case ,dont expect to be seeing pictures of people with natural looking hair coming ou tof that. it will probably just be a little circle that they are using and will asess how well the cells induce follicles, which they will probably cut out of the patients as soon as its finished.