S-equol again

[cthulhu2]

Is there really any difference between natures sunshine s equol or foxelen s s equol ?

Yes, folexen is not a legitimate company and no longer can be found. People make the mistake that since folexens equol Didnt work natures sunshine wont work. This type of comparison should not be made. Tge issue witg pinotq is he is also taking fin and has no before and after pics. We really need someone to take before and after pics of a 4 mont duration or even better, bloodwork.

[Adaku]

@kmit028: I am not on any of those at the moment. I've also had no side effects at all with the equol.

@cthulhu2: If I have any noticeable differences another two months or later down the road, I can provide pictures.

@thechamp: Nature's Sunshine doesn't say that their product is s-equol. I'm skeptical that Folexen was legitimate. I think it's safe to say that Nature's Sunshine is a legitimate equol product, although not necessarily 100% s-equol.

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So, my preference is still for bloodwork. It'd be roughly $260 for two DHT blood tests (LEF DHT test). I and Pinotq are taking different dosages of the supplement, which is rather expensive (~$150-200/month for me). Does anyone have an idea of how long it takes for dht levels to return to normal for a blood test after discontinuing something like fin or equol?

[cthulhu2]

@kmit028: I am not on any of those at the moment. I've also had no side effects at all with the equol.

@cthulhu2: If I have any noticeable differences another two months or later down the road, I can provide pictures.

@thechamp: Nature's Sunshine doesn't say that their product is s-equol. I'm skeptical that Folexen was legitimate. I think it's safe to say that Nature's Sunshine is a legitimate equol product, although not necessarily 100% s-equol.

--

So, my preference is still for bloodwork. It'd be roughly $260 for two DHT blood tests (LEF DHT test). I and Pinotq are taking different dosages of the supplement, which is rather expensive (~$150-200/month for me). Does anyone have an idea of how long it takes for dht levels to return to normal for a blood test after discontinuing something like fin or equol?

No longer than 2 weeks.
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...hreadid=104754.

I would be willing to pitch in money for that blood test if others are.

[PinotQ]

Yes, folexen is not a legitimate company and no longer can be found. People make the mistake that since folexens equol Didnt work natures sunshine wont work. This type of comparison should not be made. Tge issue witg pinotq is he is also taking fin and has no before and after pics. We really need someone to take before and after pics of a 4 mont duration or even better, bloodwork.

cthulhu2, I have been taking fin for over 15 years and it has lost much of it's effectiveness. My understanding is that while fin reduces DHT by up to 70%, there is still 30 % that over the years is gradually chipping away at your hair. I believe this to be how my situation has worked. So if I have success I will know for sure that it is b/c of s-equol and not b/c of fin. Of course, there might still be a dosage question since fin is taking out a good chunk of the DHT on its own. I am not expecting substantial regrowth but if that did occur, I do have a before pic that I could use for comparison. If I am rock solid sure that s-equol is only maintaining in 6 months to a year (there would be no real photographic evidence so it would be hard to prove maintenance), I will let everyone know..........it will just be my word and everyone can use that information as they see fit. FYI In reviewing the research on fin, I note that shedding can occur for the first 3 to 6 months so there could be a big window of when you might expect to see results. As I said in the beginning, this is an experiment. I am coming up on three months.

Also, I had not heard back from Nature's Sunshine on the "s" vs "r" equol issue so I emailed again yesterday and was told that before any label claim can be made whether it is S-Equol or R-Equol it has to be authorized by the legal department. They said it should be another week before hearing back.

[cthulhu2]

cthulhu2, I have been taking fin for over 15 years and it has lost much of it's effectiveness. My understanding is that while fin reduces DHT by up to 70%, there is still 30 % that over the years is gradually chipping away at your hair. I believe this to be how my situation has worked. So if I have success I will know for sure that it is b/c of s-equol and not b/c of fin. Of course, there might still be a dosage question since fin is taking out a good chunk of the DHT on its own. I am not expecting substantial regrowth but if that did occur, I do have a before pic that I could use for comparison. If I am rock solid sure that s-equol is only maintaining in 6 months to a year (there would be no real photographic evidence so it would be hard to prove maintenance), I will let everyone know..........it will just be my word and everyone can use that information as they see fit. FYI In reviewing the research on fin, I note that shedding can occur for the first 3 to 6 months so there could be a big window of when you might expect to see results. As I said in the beginning, this is an experiment. I am coming up on three months.

Also, I had not heard back from Nature's Sunshine on the "s" vs "r" equol issue so I emailed again yesterday and was told that before any label claim can be made whether it is S-Equol or R-Equol it has to be authorized by the legal department. They said it should be another week before hearing back.

Great, thanks for the info. The science between equol is legitimate as you've clearly shown, however my one concern is that no studies exist to show its effect on hairloss. I am hoping this is the case because equol cannot be patentedm

[PinotQ]

Great, thanks for the info. The science between equol is legitimate as you've clearly shown, however my one concern is that no studies exist to show its effect on hairloss. I am hoping this is the case because equol cannot be patentedm

In the end I quess nobody will know whether it works until some of us try. I'm sure a few more will join in soon enough. There are some limited trials on the other s-equol benefits such as for menopause, BHP, wrinkles and even metabolic syndrome but none it appears for hair loss. To some extent, I think legitimate research groups might steer away from the hair loss aspect in the beginning so they don't risk being associated with the snake oil persona that seems to be attracted to that industry, especially the more natural options. I do think the patent question you raise is legitimate. Lund, Setchall, etc. have a filed a patent that covers all of the above but it does not appear to be stopping Nature's Sunshine or Nature Made. Not sure whether equol can be effectively patented and/or whether the manufacturing process can be patented. I believe Nature Made and Lund, Setchall, etc have manufacturing process patents..........which could be why Nature's Sunshine won't disclose how their product is made.

[NeedHairASAP]

In the end I quess nobody will know whether it works until some of us try. I'm sure a few more will join in soon enough. There are some limited trials on the other s-equol benefits such as for menopause, BHP, wrinkles and even metabolic syndrome but none it appears for hair loss. To some extent, I think legitimate research groups might steer away from the hair loss aspect in the beginning so they don't risk being associated with the snake oil persona that seems to be attracted to that industry, especially the more natural options. I do think the patent question you raise is legitimate. Lund, Setchall, etc. have a filed a patent that covers all of the above but it does not appear to be stopping Nature's Sunshine or Nature Made. Not sure whether equol can be effectively patented and/or whether the manufacturing process can be patented. I believe Nature Made and Lund, Setchall, etc have manufacturing process patents..........which could be why Nature's Sunshine won't disclose how their product is made.

1. You can't patent equol, only the process. Similarly, you can't patent wind, but you can patent (or could have in the past) have patented a fan. Getting a patent is easy, enforcing it is difficult. It's still a point of interest but I wouldn't give it much weight in your final conclusion on this product.

2. I ordered some. I'm only taking one pill in the morning and one at night. I'm hoping for positive benefits you mention, and hopefully it at least keeps my hair healthy and scalp itch down. I'm not really expecting regrowth. I unfortunately wont be taking photos.

[Adaku]

Has anyone received a response on this?

I've decided it will be worth going the blood test route, as opposed to continuously spending ~$200/month on equol. This is my current plan:

1. Pay for the tests sometime around Friday, August 8
2. Stay off equol for two weeks, then take the test
3. Get back on equol at 18 mg 3 times per day, spread out over approximately 8 hours each dose.
4. Wait 2 weeks, then take the second test

At that point, I'll put the results on here. It looks like it'll be sometime in September. I figure 18 mg should show a pretty significant change in DHT, and if not, the supplement is either ineffective or too expensive.

[kmit028]

Has anyone received a response on this?

I've decided it will be worth going the blood test route, as opposed to continuously spending ~$200/month on equol. This is my current plan:

1. Pay for the tests sometime around Friday, August 8
2. Stay off equol for two weeks, then take the test
3. Get back on equol at 18 mg 3 times per day, spread out over approximately 8 hours each dose.
4. Wait 2 weeks, then take the second test

At that point, I'll put the results on here. It looks like it'll be sometime in September. I figure 18 mg should show a pretty significant change in DHT, and if not, the supplement is either ineffective or too expensive.

This is a great approach

How much do you think blood tests will cost?

[cthulhu2]

Has anyone received a response on this?

I've decided it will be worth going the blood test route, as opposed to continuously spending ~$200/month on equol. This is my current plan:

1. Pay for the tests sometime around Friday, August 8
2. Stay off equol for two weeks, then take the test
3. Get back on equol at 18 mg 3 times per day, spread out over approximately 8 hours each dose.
4. Wait 2 weeks, then take the second test

At that point, I'll put the results on here. It looks like it'll be sometime in September. I figure 18 mg should show a pretty significant change in DHT, and if not, the supplement is either ineffective or too expensive.

This would be a great contribution to the hairloss community. It sounds like these tests would cost a total of 200 for both. Is there any way we can pitch in for this blood test as a group? If we can get like 20 people to do it the cost would only be 10 per person or so.

[cthulhu2]

If it does not lower his dht, I guess we can call shenanigans on Nature's Sunshine

[redsiberian]

This is the response I got from them regarding what's in their product:

Thank you for contacting us earlier this month about our Equolibrium. Per Dr Tripp, it is naturally-occurring equol. We are not specifying R or S. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with today.


Thank you,

Andrew H.
NSP Customer Service
1-800-223-8225

[PinotQ]

This is the response I got from them regarding what's in their product:

Thank you for contacting us earlier this month about our Equolibrium. Per Dr Tripp, it is naturally-occurring equol. We are not specifying R or S. Please let us know if there is anything else we can help you with today.


Thank you,

Andrew H.
NSP Customer Service
1-800-223-8225

This is a different response than I am getting. I first contacted them on July 10 and they said they would contact the Health & Sciences department to get me the answer .................and then they said they had to get approval from the legal department. Yesterday, they said they would follow up since I had still heard nothing. This makes me a little skeptical. I told them I could see why they might need legal dept approval if I was asking whether the product had a particular effect or provided a particular benefit but I am only asking what exactly is in the product and I would think that would be a legal requirement.

Does anyone know an independent lab that could test this?

[Adaku]

@kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate.

@cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively.

@regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?

[cthulhu2]

@kmit028: Somewhere between $300 - $400 overall I think is a good estimate.

@cthulhu2: That's a possibility -- I'd contribute to more stuff like this if we had a good way to fund it. In this case, I'll get the tests and put the results on here, then if anyone wants to, they can contribute retroactively.

@regarding emails: I'm not surprised about the lack of useful email responses. I sent one too, and I did not receive a reply. At this point, I'm almost certain it is racemic equol (R and S). There seem to be enough studies that use racemic equol, so I'm pretty sure it's not a safety issue. The questions I have now are: 1. Does it mitigate DHT as well as pure S-equol would? 2. Is the equol product of a good quality?

It's a shame that the only way we can know if the product does what it is intended is to do blood work or independent lab tests, which likely are more expensive than blood tests and are probably more difficult to obtain.