NORWOOD 6 members who have had HT surgery

[topcat]

I think if it is given more in terms of percentages it gives a prospective patient a more realistic view. Then they can decide if increasing the percentages in certain areas would give them a better look as opposed to spreading all available resources over a very large area. Spoken in these terms young guys would be less apt to go for a very low hairline and extensively bald patients would be less apt to plant into the crown.

It’s best to just tell patients the real deal which is what good clinics do. If the patient wants it fine if not then hit the road pal. Because the fact is after some thought I believe many would come back knowing that some hair might be better then no hair and now they fully understand what it is they are getting without any misunderstandings.

As far as the many clinics they purposely neglect to fully inform the patient. There is an interesting book by Phillip Zimbardo “The Lucifer Effect” which is based on a Stanford prison experiment which shows just how quickly people can turn bad give the right circumstances. One really needs to be aware.

Jotronic good to hear you are still lifting as making it a habit is what is really important. Any anyone that is aware can take what they see in the HT industry and compare it exactly to what happens in medicine in general. So if you end up in poor health your chances of finding the right doctor is very, very slim maybe only about 10% of what there is to choose from. Most simply cannot grasp this concept and it is the same with the prospective ht patient. They simply can’t grasp that 90% in the field are complete crap. So taking care of your health in every way is very important to avoid even being put in a position where you need to depend on the medical system.

I would suggest moving the workout to early morning when testosterone levels are higher. Add in some slow repetitive type movement for about 20 minutes, something as simple as walking to really raise serotonin levels which will make you less apt to reach for cheap carbs during the day. Working out in the evening is better than nothing but you are raising cortisol levels at a time when you should be winding down before sleep………….anyway just a thought.

[Jotronic]

Topcat,

I recognize the benefits of working out in the morning and I've tried a few times to make the switch permanent. I just have to find the right balance to do so. Problem is, mornings are tough for me especially since the gym I prefer is a fifteen minute drive (30 minutes round trip). I've tried mornings where I take my work clothes with me and get ready for work at the gym but it means more crap to carry around Today however, I did workout in the morning (leg day). I'm up at 6:15 a.m. every day but instead of reading the news and taking time to wake up I hopped in the car and drove to the gym. My workout last night was cut short so this morning was a make up session.

Lifting is a lifestyle for me now. I'm not a power lifter but I love doing it and I enjoy the positive changes I've seen. I started one year ago as of September and friends that have not seen me in a while say that I look like a completely different person. I can't imagine NOT doing it and when circumstances arise that prevent me from getting to the gym for whatever reason (rare) I feel guilty and even bloated, lol! I'm currently out of my lean phase (lost nearly 30 pounds) and slowing building my carb and calorie intake. Over the past 3 weeks I've seen a 30% to 50% increase in my strength which has me shocked. Breakfast consists of plain Greek yogurt (30% fat) mixed with blended spinach and six boiled eggs. Mid-morning I eat a can of tuna with mayo mixed in, lunch is a couple of chicken breasts and a green salad, mid afternoon is maybe another can of tuna then after my evening workout I have a post-workout protein shake with carb powder then 45 minutes later I have meat and green vegetables or lots of sushi and spinach gomae for dinner. This will change of course if I can finally make the transition to morning workouts. Taste for me is irrelevant now. Food is fuel.

Anyway, I digress, but once the subject of exercise comes up I get excited. Consequently, I am a firm believer now that the quality of one's nutritional intake and physical fitness directly correlates with the quality of one's hair. My hair is shinier now than I can remember. The strands of each hair seem healthier, stronger and overall my hair looks and feels thicker. I take no MSM or hair pills/lotions save for Proscar every day. It makes sense when one says there is a correlation but it really hits home when one experiences the change first hand.

[topcat]

Well I don’t want to take the thread off topic either but really good for you and I’m happy to hear it. Your progress speaks for itself. Here is a quick interesting thought. People that can’t eat healthy are really spoiled and overfed they just don’t know, victims of very good marketing. A good experiment for most to try would be fasting for a day or so just plain water. Now try that healthy meal and tell me just how delicious and satisfying it truly tastes.

Most give nutrition too little regard during the healing process and I understand as doctors are part of a system that keeps them doing what those that control the system want them to do. I think garlic is superior as an antibiotic but any doctor that recommended this would have his license revoked. Garlic works with the body and doesn’t kill the beneficial gut bacteria which are essential during the healing process.

Of course I could tweak your diet a little bit but I think what you will find in time is that you will do that on your own as it’s all part of goal setting and wanting to do better which is an endless journey. One thing I do know for certain happiness is directly related to how we feel so feeling good would definitely make one happy. Sure one can have loads and loads of money and buy all kinds of crap but those moments of happiness are fleeting in my opinion. Feeling good as in feeling physically vibrant and being around good people are much more important.

So here is a thought on what I would do with your current regimen as it’s really all about health or at least that is what is should be about. Swap out that Greek yogurt for some homemade yogurt. Find a local goat farmer in your area, buy some of that bulgaris culture and make your own, very simple to do. You avoid damaging the proteins with heat as you only heat the milk up to about 100 degrees. The problem with store bought yogurt is not only the heat they used to pasteurize the milk but more importantly where is that milk coming from. Hormones if being used get trapped in the fat and that is what makes commercial dairy and meat extremely carcinogenic. Then of course we can start getting into what the animal is fed and how that starts to affect the fatty acid ratio. Same thing with the protein powder, dump it as the source is more than likely heavily hormone fed dairy which is cheap. Why would anyone drink a product so heavily laced with estrogen, very simple good marketing.

I would also swap out the chicken breast for some chicken backs. Plenty of fat and you can eat the bones.

Having information is good too. My wife always has some story about one of her customers that is dying from something or other. Here is an absolute perfect example of not having the right information when one needs it. One of her customers about a week ago confided in her that his son who was only 46 was dying. He was having headaches and losing vision and went in to check it out, it was an inoperable brain tumor. As soon as I heard her say that I told her you have to tell this person about Dr. Burzynski who has an incredible cure rate with brain tumors that those in control of the medical system have been trying to suppress for the last 20 years, I know because I have followed it for that long. She said it was too late they did a biopsy and he never came out of it, they gave him 48 hours to live. Now why would someone drill a hole into someone’s head if it was inoperable? Did they know about Dr. Burzynski and even if they did would they even say something. It’s all very sad yet amazing to watch.

It’s kind of a coincidence too as I just posted something on this same subject a few weeks back. Well I have about 5 more pages of comments but I seem to be going off topic here.

BTW the Bruzynski info is always good to have in your back pocket. Personally I think we will see an explosion if gilomas in the near future from all the cell phone use .

[Jotronic]

Topcat,

To keep from straying further off topic, I responded in this thread...

http://www.baldtruthtalk.com/showthread.php?p=150475#post150475

[Artista]

Lets HOPE for the best

[TheEmperor]

I began as a nw6 at 28 years old. In the past 6 years i have had three HT's. All up about 7500 grafts. The above picture of Oliver stone was roughly what I was able to achieve. Unfortunately I was only able to cover the crown with very little hair.

. . .

When I look back at how I was as a nw6 to where I am now its a big difference. Am I 100% happy with my results? No. BUT I do look better, people that knew me before have said the same thing, im more confident and happier.

Anyway I hope this helps. Good luck and be prepared for a long journey. Take care.

I am/was a NW5 and had FUT 6500 grafts from a respected surgeon and wanted to chime in on this thread. Haven't been on the forums in a couple years, and its not because I am happy with my hair and moved on, only that it wasn't worth investing any more energy into. I came back to the forum to see it's reaction to the recent development in hair cloning and then saw this thread and thought I could help someone.

There are a number of problems that I was not aware of prior to getting FUT, and based on extensive interviews with consultant and doctor, thought I would get a much better result.

Yes a NW5/6 *can* get a "homerun", but if you read the forums long enough you will see that the really great results keep getting reposted, and the unhappy patients seem to fade away.

I believe I had a problem with yield There seems to be evidence that the grafts planted in the hairline did not grow nearly as well as the larger grafts, this is either because they were overpacked or cut down too much. The hairline hairs that came in are much finer, and I have roughly about 20-25 hairs cm^2 in an area that should be the thickest. The larger grafts behind the hairline seem to have largely grown in.

The FUT doctors all have different cutting strategies, some subdivide them more than others. Some use skinny grafts to get higher packing density, others use chubby grafts for greater survival. When shopping docs, look at graft economy and cutting strategies.

The megasession clinics tend to hypercut the grafts into the smallest possible groupings to maximize graft counts and profit. This may be advised for someone with thick coarse hair, but for someone with fine hair it will cause lack of density and unneccesary death of grafts.

They also use skinny grafts so they can pack with more density in a given area (the fat around the graft is removed so they are skinnier.) Fat grafts are shown to have higher yield. Unfortuantely, skinny grafts are more delicate and require greater precision from techs. There is evidence that certain techs got significantly better yield than other techs.

Also, FUT docs have less selection of individual grafts. My sides had smaller and finer hairs so many of the grafts came from this area. Had I gone to a FUE doctor, he would have been able to choose more grafts from the better stock on the back of my head.

To summarize, I had 6500 grafts that looks more like 3500-4000 and I am pretty much maxed out how much more FUT I can get. The scar is pretty nasty so I have to keep the hair longer on the sides, the top is a comb-forward that I keep in place with hairspray. It doesnt look horrible combed forward, but it requires careful styling. Cant comb it back because the hairline does not look natural.

If I had gone to a FUE doc, even if I only got half as many grafts, he would have been able to cherry pick grafts and reconstruct a thin see through hairline like the Willis pic above. And this would have looked good because I could then cut the sides really short. Now I am a slave to a daily styling routine all because I need enough hair to cover up the scar.

If one is set on going to a FUT clinic, I would consider going to a doc that employs multiple strategies and incorporates FUE into his routine, and whose pricing is not designed to move you into larger sessions. Two high yield 2500 sessions are better than a 4500 + 2000 that gets compromised yield. Slow and steady wins the race, I think megasessions will show more "home runs" but are also higher risk and can damage grafts.

If someone is a NW6, its a given that they will need more than one session. Either go with an "economy" look with FUE, or make it your highest priority to maximize yield with a doctor who uses chubby grafts and does not hypercut to maximize graft counts. That can produce home runs, but it is also higher risk.

[Artista]

Hi TheEmperor thanks for your contribution here on this thread.
I appreciate your point of view and personal experience.
I hope you are OK with what you see in the mirror even though it seems to be less than 6500 grafts used.
Sorry if I overlooked anything but, what year did you have your HT done?

[Number47]

Hey Emperor you have my sympathies my friend, i guess you don't get many responses when a story is sad. The forums have changed over the years, there was sympathy back then, worry and support. On the other hand there was excitement also, anticipation and hope.

Now i think we are all a bit more cynical, less excited and less sensitive when we see a bad result. There is a lesson here to be learned, more than ever you have to do your homework and search multiple doctors, search the truth ask questions, talk with patients. Cause when you take your decision and do it you are all alone in failure. The doc will disappear, your friendly consultant will disappear and no one from the forums will really care after a while.

People say we don't have real evolutions in the forums there is no progress, i agree to an extent but there is for sure one evolution in hair transplant industry. The evolution of FUE hair transplants and none of the old arguments can stop it anymore, the work of great surgeons took them out one by one. But that doesn't mean all fue surgeons are angels cause they don't do strip leaving a scar on the back of the head , we still have to be extremely careful who we choose!


This evolution didn't happen cause some guys acted like fanatics in forums preaching antistrip and making all FUE surgeons look like saviors. This evolution happened cause the market demanded it and surgeons improvised and worked on it to deliver and the results are everywhere. The simple truth is strip is dying as FUE progresses and you can see it clearly in the forums where the FUE results get most of the attention.

[topcat]

Would disagree, it’s the patients who change the industry at least those that are willing to come back and post. As far as those that have a poor result or the result that didn’t quite meet their expectations and decide to move on without warning others well that does become part of how the industry can keep it all going. But I do have to give Emperor credit as he did come back to the forums and posted often which I’m sure helped many in their own decisions.

Many of the forums and clinics actively worked against those performing fue and they did it day in and day out. Some forums even had the nerve to state that recommending fue was very dangerous as their bread was being buttered elsewhere and this is why the forums have limited value in researching. Sure you can look at results but it really comes down to speaking to those patients that are very vocal at least that has been my experience, to point out all the guys that are full of crap. It’s only after taking a step back and looking at the big picture that you can connect all the dots.

I think Emperor had a good result at least in my eyes. In my opinion from what I remembering seeing it’s close to 30% of the original hair that he had and as long as he was aware of that number before the procedure then there is not much one can say. As far as the crown area becoming lower because of the strip removal itself I’m sure he knows what he sees in the mirror.

6500 grafts is about 15,000 hairs which is about 28%. I think if the number were explained to patients in terms that can be more easily understood then they would know the limitations of the procedure.

[fred970]

I don't know if Jotronic will see this but I have my first FUE scheduled in a few months and I'm still not sure if I should go for it. I can't send private messages so could reply to me here please?

This is my most recent picture (a month ago):



I will be 24 in a few days and my hair situation is quite bad. Almost NW5, all the hair left you can see on this picture is thanks to minoxidil which I've been using for 4 years now. I've never had a receding hair line. It was pure diffused pattern alopecia.

I can't use finasteride or any DHT blocker because I'm gyno prone and had gynecomastia surgery last year.

What I'm really, really scared of is losing the "frame" I can still barely see when I look at myself in the mirror. I think it's OK now, but what about in a year? Maybe a few months?

I know I'm really young for a first FUE, I've seen Dr. Bisanga in Brussels who turned me down right away. Dr. De Reys in Belgium said he would do it even if I would not have enough donor to cover it all in the end.

I still like how I look, even if sometimes, the lightning will be too harsh and I will get very depressed. Maybe I should wait a little longer? I just don't like when I'm being told there is no solution for me or that I should glue a wig on my head. I just want to do what's right for me. And wearing a wig or looking like a 55 years old man at 25 is not right for me. What should I do?

[Artista]

Hi Fred! You can better contact Jotronic by visiting his website.. www.hairtransplantmentor.com/
Good luck brother!!

[Follicle Death Row]

Fred if it's FUE you want then maybe go into with the idea that it may not be possible to do the crown down the road. 4000 FUE in the front half can look awesome.

[fred970]

That has always been my idea . My main concern is to look worse after the FUE's because of horrible shock loss. I'm quite of a pessimist. I've seen that even Spex had quite a bad shock loss, but even then, I'm used to shaving my head, and you almost don't see the scars of my gynecomastia surgery for example. Maybe I worry too much and a FUE would definitely make me happier.

[TheEmperor]

I don't know if Jotronic will see this but I have my first FUE scheduled in a few months and I'm still not sure if I should go for it. I can't send private messages so could reply to me here please?

This is my most recent picture (a month ago):



I will be 24 in a few days and my hair situation is quite bad. Almost NW5, all the hair left you can see on this picture is thanks to minoxidil which I've been using for 4 years now. I've never had a receding hair line. It was pure diffused pattern alopecia.

I can't use finasteride or any DHT blocker because I'm gyno prone and had gynecomastia surgery last year.

What I'm really, really scared of is losing the "frame" I can still barely see when I look at myself in the mirror. I think it's OK now, but what about in a year? Maybe a few months?

I know I'm really young for a first FUE, I've seen Dr. Bisanga in Brussels who turned me down right away. Dr. De Reys in Belgium said he would do it even if I would not have enough donor to cover it all in the end.

I still like how I look, even if sometimes, the lightning will be too harsh and I will get very depressed. Maybe I should wait a little longer? I just don't like when I'm being told there is no solution for me or that I should glue a wig on my head. I just want to do what's right for me. And wearing a wig or looking like a 55 years old man at 25 is not right for me. What should I do?

Fred,

I empathize with your situation. I think you still look good, and if you are comfortable with the "less is more" approach, I would ONLY consider FUE.

The look you have now, with really short sides, and an outline of a hairline on top, could easily be accomplished with FUE, without many grafts.

If you get strip, there is a good chance you will have to keep the sides longer and that will emphasize the baldness.

Try to wait as long as you can. At least with FUE you have the option to buzz down.

Even with strip, there is a really good chance you wont be able to complete the crown with your degree of loss.

[TheEmperor]

Hey Emperor you have my sympathies my friend, i guess you don't get many responses when a story is sad. The forums have changed over the years, there was sympathy back then, worry and support. On the other hand there was excitement also, anticipation and hope.

Now i think we are all a bit more cynical, less excited and less sensitive when we see a bad result. There is a lesson here to be learned, more than ever you have to do your homework and search multiple doctors, search the truth ask questions, talk with patients. Cause when you take your decision and do it you are all alone in failure. The doc will disappear, your friendly consultant will disappear and no one from the forums will really care after a while.

People say we don't have real evolutions in the forums there is no progress, i agree to an extent but there is for sure one evolution in hair transplant industry. The evolution of FUE hair transplants and none of the old arguments can stop it anymore, the work of great surgeons took them out one by one. But that doesn't mean all fue surgeons are angels cause they don't do strip leaving a scar on the back of the head , we still have to be extremely careful who we choose!


This evolution didn't happen cause some guys acted like fanatics in forums preaching antistrip and making all FUE surgeons look like saviors. This evolution happened cause the market demanded it and surgeons improvised and worked on it to deliver and the results are everywhere. The simple truth is strip is dying as FUE progresses and you can see it clearly in the forums where the FUE results get most of the attention.

I got caught up in the wave of megasession hype about five years ago, when the top strip docs were posting greater and greater graft counts. The clinic I went to is/was very anti fue.

Ironically, the consultant whose results wowed me did not have any megasessions himself. In fact he started out with a significant number of mini grafts which probably helped his density down the road. And his sessions were generally smaller and I dont remember that they dense packed him, so he probably got the best yield. They also were able to respond to his concerns over something like 4-5 surgeries and make small adjustments to the hairline.

The point is that the quality of even a top doc can go off a cliff in a short period of time (changing methods, staff, apathy, etc.) I based my decision on results I saw from 3-5 years prior to my first surgery, not on the results I saw coming out at the time from the particular surgeon I chose. When I objectively looked back through all the results, I realized there were more unhappy patients than I originally thought. There were also some guys with really shitty results that everyone was patting on the back and cheering on because the forums (rightly) wanted them to feel better about themselves.

I agree that the forums have gotten alot more discriminating and people are more likely to call it as they see it.