Updated Research and Knowledge - Cutting Edge

[ppxrare]

Can anyone post a TLR for those of us who don't understand the scientific conversation being held here?

[TubZy]

WARNING : Using too more Keto is not bad for the body (especially your liver) ?

Oral only buddy u should know this lol

[BRIANBOY]

Chemical - I found out I had AA after the transplant, when the hairs would not grow in certain spots. That's when a biopsy was done to confirm. Regarding the mpb, I started receding around 17-18 yrs old. Regarding the allergic reaction with EGCG, I think I was simply using too high of a concentration. Regarding the Rosemary Extract (not the oil), the literature seems to indicate it is not so much a 5AR inhibitor, more of an AR receptor blocker / interference.

<"~1.5mg OL + 5mg EGCG / 1ml Minox. Now things will start to get interesting." -- Chemical >

Please confirm, that you are using 5mg "pure" EGCG per ml = .5% solution? And, the 1.5 mg "pure" OL(oleuropein) per ml = .15% solution? Initially, you were using commercial products which contained a percentage of the active extracts (750 mg Olive Leaf = 150 mg OL), so the active extracts may actually be a lower percentage in solution. I just want to be clear what the actual percentage of active ingredient you are currently using. Your percentages seem low (.5% EGCG & .15% OL per ml), but, maybe you theorize that the lower percent solutions are closer to the clinical tests done on the mice? .. i.e. - less is better?

I am currently adding OL to the mix and applying keto as well. Hoping for the best. Thanks for your input.

[SriHanuman]

Study also said that at least 0.4% solution of oleuropein was required...

[Chemical]

chemical i put 1 cap of EGCG into 60ml of my eth/pg mix which equals 2.5mg/ml i see your using 5mg/ml is it worth putting an extra cap in or just carry on for 1 for a month then add to it.

Looks like we might want to keep EGCC concentration low until we have further confirmation of its topical use in a high ethanol solution, there's potential for irritation as Brian ha pointed out. I will test the current EGCG dose for two weeks before recommending a higher EGCG concentration, just to be on the safe side because I know everyone reacts differently. The last thing we want is irritation induced hair loss. Although perhaps PGE2 might be increased? Wishful thinking...

WARNING : Using too more Keto is not bad for the body (especially your liver) ?

Oral keto at 200mg+ has liver toxicity. We are using it topically, and at reduced concentrations.

Can anyone post a TLR for those of us who don't understand the scientific conversation being held here?

I'll be creating a blog/wiki soon explaining stuff in layman terms - also there is too much info to cover.

@Brian

Turns out you were right, EGCG is irritating: http://www.teavigoinfo.com/pdf/study-7.pdf

I did notice slight irritation in the morning (then again I havent used emu oil for 3 days). Good thing I only added 150mg - I will dilute to 2.5mg if I notice excessive irritation. The OL extract I'm using is 750mg of OL standardized to 20% = 150mg OL per capsule. I'm using the actual OL content figure of 150mg and not the 750mg. Same for EGCG standardized from teavigo @90% yielding 150mg pure EGCG per capsule. The reason for the low OL dose is because I suspect there is a biphasic effect, with higher doses being less effective.

And apparently rosemary oil can be irritating, which is why the extract is much better suited - like you said. It is indeed an AR suppressor too.

Study also said that at least 0.4% solution of oleuropein was required...

0.4mg was the minimum OL dose found to be effective.

[SriHanuman]

Chemical,

Yes, it was mg and not %, sorry man, my bad.

[potato1987]

Still thinning

Hi Guys,

I am really hoping someone can break down what to buy and use, my hair seems to be thinning at the front and temples at such a rate. I am currently just using castor oil and Oleuropein with some emu oil and derma rolling once a week.

Have done so for about 6 weeks with little to no results.

I tried minox but it gave me such bad eye bags.

I need a minox free solution and I'm getting pretty desperate.

[joshuk]

Hi Guys,

I am really hoping someone can break down what to buy and use, my hair seems to be thinning at the front and temples at such a rate. I am currently just using castor oil and Oleuropein with some emu oil and derma rolling once a week.

Have done so for about 6 weeks with little to no results.

I tried minox but it gave me such bad eye bags.

I need a minox free solution and I'm getting pretty desperate.

you are not using anything to stop MPB. castor oil and Oleuropein wont stop hairloss they are added to help an exsiting protocol, you need FIN/DUT or an AA like RU/CB otherwise you will go bald.you not tried any of these??

i cant use minox either so im using Oleuropein/EGCG mix as a alternative been on it 5 days to early for results.

[potato1987]

Hi Josh, I tried Minox but the bags under my eyes where black and sunken to the bone. I aged so, so quickly and people even commented on it regularly. my eyes are now normal tone but sadly the collagen seems gone, it was belgravia 10% minox. I can't start Fin as my wife and I would like children soon so this throws a spanner in the works. Your on just Oleuropein/EGCG? Could I do the same? I wanted to private message you Josh but couldn't find how.

[Sogeking]

you are not using anything to stop MPB. castor oil and Oleuropein wont stop hairloss they are added to help an exsiting protocol, you need FIN/DUT or an AA like RU/CB otherwise you will go bald.you not tried any of these??

i cant use minox either so im using Oleuropein/EGCG mix as a alternative been on it 5 days to early for results.

I disagree what is the point of adding something to fin and/or minox if that something doesn't work. I'll test oleuropein +ecgc combo on its own to see if it does something. If it doesn'nt then there is no point in adding it to any kind of regime.

[BaldingEagle]

I disagree what is the point of adding something to fin and/or minox if that something doesn't work. I'll test oleuropein +ecgc combo on its own to see if it does something. If it doesn'nt then there is no point in adding it to any kind of regime.

Agreed, how can you possibly gauge results when fin and min are already disrupting the balding process if you're taking them. You have to test one thing at a time. That is how every clinical trial is done for a reason.

[joshuk]

its up to you what you do i was only giving some advice its your choice im gonna stick to my regime. hope it does something for you

[pilipili]

Chemical stated he added EGCG to maintain regrowth right? Or at least to try to... I'm wondering if this Oleuropein/EGCG combo could make existing hair thicker ,stronger

[Sogeking]

its up to you what you do i was only giving some advice its your choice im gonna stick to my regime. hope it does something for you

Yeah sure man. Whatever works. I mean if this works on its own then I'm sure it would work even better with fin.

[Chemical]

you are not using anything to stop MPB. castor oil and Oleuropein wont stop hairloss they are added to help an exsiting protocol, you need FIN/DUT or an AA like RU/CB otherwise you will go bald.you not tried any of these??

I agree with josh.

Your on just Oleuropein/EGCG? Could I do the same?

You can try the OL + EGCG but do not expect results, this is still in experimental stages.

I disagree what is the point of adding something to fin and/or minox if that something doesn't work. I'll test oleuropein +ecgc combo on its own to see if it does something. If it doesn'nt then there is no point in adding it to any kind of regime.

Agreed, how can you possibly gauge results when fin and min are already disrupting the balding process if you're taking them. You have to test one thing at a time. That is how every clinical trial is done for a reason.

You both raise a valid point. If we wanted to see if each treatment worked by itself, then I'd urge you just try OL for a few weeks, and you definitely wont see any results. The way OL works is by increasing BetaCatenin, and Androgens block this pathway significantly. So by itself, even after 3 months, you wont see anything revolutionary - therefore we can conclude it doesnt work and it probably wont work when stacked with anything else. You could also try EGCG by itself, which has a higher probability of yielding cosmetic improvement, but if you test it for 2 months and dont see anything - can we conclude it doesnt work in humans at all? I see alot of people doing this kind of experimentation all over the internet on the basis of "its more scientific and controlled". Unfortuneately our scalps are not petri dishes where you can control the locally produced cytokines. If you wanted to see if something works on you, you would have to use it only on a certain area, and compare the difference between control regions. These are topical treatments after all.

Moreover, the scalp is like a black box, you only see the output (hair) but you dont see whats going on inside. So this logic of trying one thing at a time to see if works is not scientific at all. Mice are a different story, their hairs are not androgen dependent and respond to all hair growth promoting treatments. But give them testosterone shots, and then treatments take ages to show any change. Since you cant dice up your scalp and analyze the protein expressions, you have to use probability and biochemical pathway models to figure out what is going on inside the black box. Only then do you have a greater chance of influencing whats going on inside. Its not scientific but its a whole lot better than blind trial error. In the likelihood that a treatment does impact hair growth both on paper and mice (without T injection), and its effectiveness is negated in human scalp due to AR or some other detrimental pathway, does that mean it doesnt work? Or does it mean AR was preventing it from working? This is a schrodingers cat analogy. You just wont know. You never will. However, if you remove AR from the equation, and the treatment works, then you will say it would work regardless of AR being present - which you cant prove.

Oleuropein and other growth agonists are additive, meaning you'll see results quicker and a quantifiable difference. I've tried minoxidil by itself, and I've tried minox + OL. I can say for a fact that the minox + OL had much better efficacy with results being apparent in a shorter time frame. This reasoning isnt something I can easily convey, but if we must make this really scientific, then it is up to the participants to run local control experiments. One side OL, the other OL + EGCG, or nothing at all.

Chemical stated he added EGCG to maintain regrowth right? Or at least to try to... I'm wondering if this Oleuropein/EGCG combo could make existing hair thicker ,stronger

EGCG to block AR and allow minox + OL to work faster. Taking the brakes off the car so it can reach full speed. I've noticed thickening of existing haired areas using Minox + OL. And 60% of those new hairs on my left temple have gone terminal. I will post pics soon.