NORWOOD 6 members who have had HT surgery

[John P. Cole, MD]

jotroic, as a life long strip monger, i'm not surprised that you refuse to recognize that there is something called the illusion of coverage. i guess that when you perpetuate the myth that strips in your hands don't leave disgusting, ugly scars, you can also perpetuate the concept that "coverage is coverage" and obviously erroneous myth you spread for years that strips produce better results than FUE. in fact, it is possible to cover the entire scalp with a single hair that is grown long enough. that is not coverage, however. that is an illusion of coverage.

you may refuse to face the fact there there is rarely enough hair to give the illusion of coverage in a nw 5 and never enough hair to give the illusion of coverage in a nw 6, but his is the simple God's truth. one is never going to cover 225 to 250 sq. cm of bald skin with 5000 to 7000 follicular groups. it is simply mathematically impossible. now, i know you guys sometimes do 5000 grafts in one session and then do more, but you fail to explain that you typically split the natural follicular groups into smaller segments so that you actually place the same follicular group more than once and then bill double or three times for that same group.

i'm no fan of discussing any specific patient whose had a hair transplant. i also, have no taste in my mouth for salesmen that pick guys who are just trying explain their perspective of hair transplant surgery. Since you did it, i'll be frank. there is something quite different from a photo result and a real result and you are a master of the photo result. that my friend is also called an illusion of coverage.

[didi]

wow..I didn't know H&W splits FUs too? at least he is not calling it stem cell hair transplant

Jotronic

You said in TBT radio show that average NW6 can get 6000-8000 grafts, that's not bad for nw6 but I would have thought its a bit of a stretch.

anyway,if nw6 lost 25 000 units...6000-8000 grafts will look too thin under sunlight, lets not full ourselves its illusion of density not real coverage

[Jotronic]

Wow, Camp Cole coming out swinging and for no reason at all. Let's get something straight. When I say that there is no such thing as an illusion of coverage, I'm talking about what we see with out eyes. Having enough hair transplanted to cover the scalp with a moderate and conservative hair style is not an illusion. My own coverage is not an illusion because my hair covers my scalp. I do not grow it super long to cover it either. It is clean, short on the back and sides, and a few inches long on top. I have enough hair to allow for real coverage. I do not have enough hair for real density. Seems to me that our definitions are complete polar opposites.

I'm not sure what nerve I touched on but it seems to be one that you feel warrants a flurry of insults and bold faced lies. That's fine, I'm used to it. The one thing I've learned over the years is that when one hasn't anything tangible to say they tend to throw what they can against the barn door to see what sticks.

Didi,

LOL! I think if we split FU's we could sell that quite easily as stem cell multiplication. We will mix in PRP, Acell, RU then stick a 9 volt battery in and let it sit overnight. If we're lucky, we may even get 70% regeneration!!!! Whaddyathink?

Monger out!

And I stand by my statement. Remember, it is a range of grafts, 6000 being on the low end of average with "average" meaning average donor density and average donor laxity. I've seen guys that can't get past 5000 and of course I've seen guys that get way more than 8000. It is difficult to nail down but it is what it is, an average if not a loose one.

[Artista]

Unfortunately I'm working this evening and won't be able to attend the Live show ! It seems that this discussion will transfer to the show.. Hope there isn't any hostilities. We are all in this together

[Follicle Death Row]

Wow, surprised at the hostility in this thread especially as H&W have the most extensive hd video catalogue of Norwood 5 & 6 restorations with comb throughs.

Still amazed how people bash FUT. Both techniques have their places.

FUT will produce more grafts in the long run than FUE
FUT enables the best hair to be taken (if you don't know why read up on variable areas of donor density, donor thinning & miniturisation as well as retrograde alopecia)
With each FUT procedure 5-10% of follicles end up in the waste bucket because they are dormant and not hair producing at the time of the procedure
FUE allows cherry picking of grafts for a higher hair to follicle ratio for the first 2000-3000 follicles
FUE will generally allow tighter haircuts
Open for debate where we stand on yield for the 2 techniques in 2013

Both have advantages & disadvantages.

If you're a Norwood 6 it's quite feasible for many to get 8000-9000 FU over 3 procedures. It's also likely that you can get 1500-2000 more via FUE on top of that. That puts many people in the region of 9500-10500 maxed out. The average Norwood 6 will have to tackle 240cm2 of bald scalp but it varies depending on the size of your head.

We're born with about 45000 follicles and a Norwood 6 will lose about 22-23000 follicles. That leaves about 22000 in a Norwood 6 donor and we are getting close to taking half of that these days. 10,000 over 240 cm2 will give an average density of 41.66 Fu/cm2. Of course you'll lose a tiny % yield wise.

Of course if you put 4200 in the rear half and 5800 in the front half you're looking at approx 48fu/cm2 in the front half and 35fu/cm2. For most people that will make them very happy but it's a long road.

Ever tempted to tap into FUE Joe?

[Follicle Death Row]

On average a patient has between 5000 and 7000 follicular units available for transplant to the top. When this person was a teenager, he may have had 25,000 follicular units on top.

35YrsAfter also posts as CITNews and works at Dr. Cole's office
Cole Hair Transplant
1045 Powers Place
Alpharetta, Georgia 30009
Phone 678-566-1011
Please feel free to call or email me with any questions.

I presume you mean 5000-7000 via FUE. I've heard from multiple surgeons that 8000-9000 are available via FUT.

[Dan26]

Lets be honest anyone who gets an FUT nowadays is a certified bozo...

[fred970]

I'm getting my first FUE in 5 months but it's because I want to be able to buzz my hair, and because I have the money for it, oh and I almost forgot, I don't want an ugly ass scar at the back of my head.

But I understand why people would opt for FUT if they're short on money and if they're are absolutely sure they will not be forced to shave their head in the future.

[UK_]

I'm getting my first FUE in 5 months but it's because I want to be able to buzz my hair, and because I have the money for it, oh and I almost forgot, I don't want an ugly ass scar at the back of my head.

But I understand why people would opt for FUT if they're short on money and if they're are absolutely sure they will not be forced to shave their head in the future.

FUE is a no brainer really, a linear scar will only cause you to get FUE in the future to cover it up when you decide you want to shave.

[Tracy C]

Lets be honest anyone who gets an FUT nowadays is a certified bozo...

That is not true. Both FUE and FUT each have their place. For some people FUT is the better option. There are more factors involved than you realize.

[PayDay]

I have to say that Dr. Cole is making himself look not so great. There is no question that FUT or "strip" is a great option for so many people and H&W present the best results on the internet. Dr. Cole's post here looks extremely self serving. Anyone who believes that FUT is outdated in anyway does not understand hair transplantation. I'm totally turned off to Cole by this!

[baldymcgee]

I have to say that Dr. Cole is making himself look not so great. There is no question that FUT or "strip" is a great option for so many people and H&W present the best results on the internet. Dr. Cole's post here looks extremely self serving. Anyone who believes that FUT is outdated in anyway does not understand hair transplantation. I'm totally turned off to Cole by this!

I'm torn on this, Spencer himself discourages young transplant patients from getting FUT (he says that FUT people should wait until they are at least 35 so they know what hairstyles they will want be happy with for the rest of their lives). But there's no doubt that FUT is cheaper, allows for larger sessions, and has a higher yield.

On the whole Norwood 6 question, Joe (bless him) has been very honest in the past when he has said that his result (and presumably Bobman's result) is not typical and that high norwood patients cannot go into the HT process expecting to have the same result. I suppose that's where it becomes important to talk to your surgeon to get a good idea of what (and isn't) possible FOR YOU.

[Artista]

I was a NW6, I had my session with Dr. Wong on June 6th 2013. 4500 Grafts.
I'm just shy of 3 months & so far so Good.

Hi Newstart, Once again, Thank you for commenting!
Please stick with this thread as your HT progresses and good luck to you.

[chrisdav]

I believe Dr Cole is a talented surgeon and he is one of several whom have helped propel the field forward enabling it to make great strides in recent times.

However, I feel these regular outbursts are completely unprofessional and should not be coming from someone in his high position in the industry.

I have a huge amount of respect for Joetronic. He is an exceptionally knowledgeable, honest and a transparent guy who gives great advice. I do find it hard to criticise H & W when they are the only clinic that has hundreds of before and after photos & videos in HD which NO other clinic does.

Regarding the two procedures, they both have their positive & negative components and hence why they both have a place in the industry as every patient's situation is unique. A good surgeon that performs both procedures will confirm that.

[Artista]

That is not true. Both FUE and FUT each have their place. For some people FUT is the better option. There are more factors involved than you realize.

Tracy is very much correct.


So is Chrisdav, Thanks Chrisdav Your using nothing but logic !