Propecia/Fin SHould be scrapped for good

[Mentalist]

I would much rather them bring out something better than propecia without the side effects to benefit everybody and not just some. rather than some risking there sex lives :|

[Tracy C]

Mentalist,

You are twisting what I said again. I am not backtracking. Apparently, you do not even know what backtracking means. What you are doing is fear mongering. Plain and simple. It is wrong and it is unethical. You need to stop this.

If you don't want to take Finasteride, don't take it. But stop this fear mongering. You are doing more harm than good - and that is unethical.

I would much rather them bring out something better than propecia without the side effects to benefit everybody and not just some. rather than some risking there sex lives :|

Everybody wants something that works for everyone and does so without side effects. Such a thing does not exist. The person who figures it out and brings it to market will make billions. But for now what we have is what we have. You guys have Finasteride and us girls have Spiro and we both have Minoxidil. If you don't want to use what we do have, don't use it. But don't take it away from those who are benefiting from it.

[25 going on 65]

Mentalist, believe me, I also wish there were better options than fin/dut that didn't require me to manipulate my hormone levels. But until those options are available this is the best I can do.

Thank goodness, because I use Minoxidil, I have no side effects from using it and I am benefiting from it. I would be very sad and upset if it were taken off the market. I can imagine that the many men who are benefiting from Finasteride, and doing so without side effects, would feel very much the same way.

Glad to hear it works well for you.
If fin was banned I would go on dut. If dut was banned as well, "sad" would not even be the word for my reaction; with my mentality I would honestly be afraid for my safety.

[FlightTL]

I am sympathetic to Mentalist...I can understand your fear. I am even scared of Minoxidil because I read on many websites that strong sexual side effects were noted after Minoxidil use...

So, Mentalist, I certainly sympathize with you...I am scared too.



With that said, it is a free country, and everyone has a choice of what they take. The beautiful thing is that ongoing research hopefully allows us to make more informed choices.

[Tracy C]

If fin was banned I would go on dut. If dut was banned as well, "sad" would not even be the word for my reaction; with my mentality I would honestly be afraid for my safety.

I can relate to that. Remember, I was a hermit lady for almost a decade because of my hair loss. These treatments that are available now helped me get my life back. If these treatments were not available, it is very possible that I might not be around.

I keep forgetting about Dutasteride. Sorry. But it is my understanding that Dutasteride has a bit more severe side effect profile than Finasteride. So, if Finasteride had to be taken off the market you can probably bet Dutasteride would be taken off the market as well.

[Mentalist]

I have no fear for myself flight as i'm lucky not to be in that position yet but I am fearing for the guys like yourself and others that are considering propecia/fin or are already on it

[25 going on 65]

I keep forgetting about Dutasteride. Sorry. But it is my understanding that Dutasteride has a bit more severe side effect profile than Finasteride. So, if Finasteride had to be taken off the market you can probably bet Dutasteride would be taken off the market as well.

Yeah no doubt about that.
to be honest if dutasteride didn't also block the type I 5-ar enzyme (which doesn't seem to do much, if anything, to stop MPB from what I understand) I would have gone on it right away. I wish there was just a more potent type II blocker that I could get on. At least then the long term sides would be more predictable. And beyond 1 mg finasteride, higher doses seem to do almost nothing for blocking more DHT!
But at this point I don't think there's any financial incentive for companies to develop a stronger type II specific blocker. With fin and dut already on the market, I can't see many investors thinking it's a good idea to pursue "super finasteride," especially with viable treatments on the horizon that don't mess with hormones at all.

The universe is stupid for not revolving around my immediate needs.

BTW I identify very much with the "hermit phase" although mine was not that long. I'm glad to hear you got your life back.

[Tracy C]

...I am fearing for the guys like yourself and others that are considering propecia/fin or are already on it

Most of the guys who are using Propecia are not experiencing the possible side effects. There is no need for you to fear for them.

The guys you need to fear for are those who are self medicating and/or using grey market meds that do not have adequately and appropriately established safety profiles. Those are the guys who are taking the really big and often very foolish risks.

[Kirby_]

I can relate to that. Remember, I was a hermit lady for almost a decade because of my hair loss.

I've been in a hermit stage since January... Not good. I was actually meant to be seeing my brother for the first time since last Easter on Friday, he's visiting from where he lives on the other end of England, but I'm too terrified of seeing him with me haven gone from longish, reasonably dense hair to bvery obviously balding hair that I'm going to be in town when he turns up! God knows when I'll even be able to him again after that due to travel distances, or if I'll have fixed my hairloss enough by then for me to cope with seeing him. That might destroy the relationship with my brother forever, I worry, but I can't face seeing him.

[beatinghairloss]

You're entitled to decide it's not worth it, it is completely fine for you not to take fin. To me it's absolutely worth it. I'm in my 20s and solely because of fin I have quite a good head of hair, much better than I expected to have at this point when I first noticed hair loss at 22-23. It's not what it once was before MPB, but at least I can go out, socialize, have sex, etc. without people noticing/commenting on my hair loss. I still get depressed about not having my full teenage mane (actually I am vulnerable to depression in general), but despite that, fin is one of the best decisions I've ever made. And it doesn't only work for 5-6 years, that's just when most men start dipping back to baseline--Spencer has used fin for 17 years and is only a NW3v despite that he started going bald like 2 and a half decades ago. Personally I will move to dutasteride whenever I start losing ground again (maybe even before that), which will buy me more years of hair.
A lto of guys don't care about MPB, but to me its a dead serious issue. If I was bald at this age I wouldn't probably be here. You only live once, you cant get the years back that you spend going bald. I would never choose to sit around through my young adulthood praying every day for a new treatment for this disfiguring condition of the scalp.

I totally understand why some men feel the risk of fin isn't worth it, and I respect that. But to me, and many others here, it was a no brainer. There literally is nothing else at this time besides dut/fin that will safely prevent hair loss in most users, which is why foregoing those treatments at this time is choosing to go bald regardless of how long it may take. I don't regret my choice, and even if I quit DHT suppressants at 40+ and get long-term sides, you know what? It will be still be worth it to me. Because I didn't have to lose my youth in my 20s.

Who says propecia caused this slowing of hairloss. I started to lose at 20 now 24 my hair looks better then it did sense I was 19 because of scalp exercises and reduced ejaculation frequency.

[25 going on 65]

Who says propecia caused this slowing of hairloss. I started to lose at 20 now 24 my hair looks better then it did sense I was 19 because of scalp exercises and reduced ejaculation frequency.

Well because fin causes stoppage or reversal of hair loss in at least 8/10 users, which we know from controled studies using thousands and thousands of participants.
We have no comparable studies for scalp exercises or reduced ejaculation so what is to say these things have had any effect on your hair loss?
(Actually many transplant patients have abnormally high scalp laxity due to long-term scalp exercises, which help with donor harvest, but they don't stop losing native hair despite this)

Edit: Either way I know it wasn't less ejaculating, since I'm doing it as much as ever, and it wasn't scalp exercises since I don't do them

[WarLord]

Very simple reasons:

1...It's the only effective MPB prevention treatment on the market besides dutasteride, which uses the same mechanism of action plus an extra one. Most men can stay above baseline with it for at least 5-6 years; many others for 9-10 or more. (And it continues working after that, most people just won't be above baseline anymore.)

Actually, 90% men stay at or above baseline after 5 years, and 86% men after 10 years. A significant percentage of men continues to improve even after 5 years of treatment. This is expectable, because finasteride lowers your DHT on the level of prepubertal children. Have you ever seen a prepubertal child balding?

Your claims - however optimistic they may seem - are therefore unfounded and largely fabricated. You apparently have a hard time to refrain from the folk negativist fairy-tales presented on this and other forums, according to which "minoxidil works only for 12 weeks" and "finasteride buys you 4-6 years".

[WarLord]

And it doesn't only work for 5-6 years, that's just when most men start dipping back to baseline--Spencer has used fin for 17 years and is only a NW3v despite that he started going bald like 2 and a half decades ago.

And the same bullsh*t again. Do you actually read some long-term studies, or do you only watch graphs randomly picked up from the internet?! Can you understand that when you compute average hair counts, the curve will always decrease even when 99% men were maintaining hair and only 1% men were losing hair?

[WarLord]

I won't be taking it when I disocver significant hair loss knowing that if i take it i might get erectile dysfunction and other side effects it's crazy and really stupid to do so and for you to say it's all in the mens head and that they're imagining it now it's way over the top. the sooner it gets banned the better for everybody it's not effective long term and doesn't stop your hair loss genes from losing hair sow hats the point in taking it.

I wonder, why hysterical hypochondriacs like you annoy people on internet forums? It seems that these forums attract negativist people like this, who have nothing to say, and only whine and spread their defeatist attitude that is entirely unfounded, because with the current arsenal of treatments, most men can probably keep their hair indefinitely.

[WarLord]

"Doctors have described taking Propecia as being on par with people playing Russian roulette with their sex drives."

"In a group of 54 otherwise healthy former users of finasteride who developed persistent sexual side effects that lasted for at least 3 months, 96% continued to experience these effects when reassessed 9–16 months (mean 14 months) later, raising the possibility of permanent effects."


"There is a solid and growing body of basic science evidence that finasteride reduces the concentrations of several neuroactive steroids that play a role in neurogenesis and neuronal survival."


"To explain the long-term neurological effects of finasteride, it is possible that reduced concentrations of neuroactive steroids are affecting the plasticity of neuronal architecture in regions of the brain responsible for sexual function."


"Another recently published study found that rats treated with finasteride for 4 weeks had a 26% reduction in the weight of their corpora cavernosa as compared with a control group [27]. This finding is consistent with the reports of genital shrinkage reported by some of the human subjects in this study."


"The most volunteered changes related to the urogenital system in terms of semen quality and decreased ejaculate volume, reduction in penis size, penile curvature or reduced sensation, fewer spontaneous erections, decreased testicular size, testicular pain, and prostatitis. Many subjects also noted changes to their mental abilities, sleeping patterns, and/or depressive symptoms. Many subjects reported a “disconnection” between the mental and physical aspects of sexual function."


"The typical story of men with persistent sexual and other side effects is that they unsuccessfully seek help from various providers in multiple medical specialties. It is important for physicians to acknowledge with their patients the current limitations in medical knowledge, particularly as it relates to neuroscience. There is no known blood or imaging test to study or measure neuroactive steroids or their metabolites in different areas of the brain associated with sexual function."


"Further valuable research could determine who would be susceptible to finasteride through genetic studies of polymorphisms of 5a reductase and the androgen receptor. Further research with validated instruments is needed to study the nonsexual persistent side effects associated with finasteride."


"When the Food and Drug Administration approved the hair-growth drug Propecia in 1997, a number of doctors and medical researchers voiced their strong concerns about the drug’s severe side effects. One outspoken critic was well-known hair-restoration expert L. Lee Bosley who publicly denounced Propecia as a "serious health concern" in the wake of its FDA approval—only to allow his doctors to enthusiastically recommend the medication to patients a few years later.


On Dec. 24, 1997, Bosley Medical—which bills itself as "The World's Most Experienced Hair Restoration Experts" and today boasts some 70 offices in the U.S., Canada, Mexico and China—issued a news release via paid-distribution service Business Wire. Headlined "Supposed Miracle Baldness Cure Creates Serious Health Concerns Among Hair Restoration Professionals," that release (still housed on LexisNexis) quoted Dr. Bosley as saying of Propecia:


"The FDA has just approved a drug that has the capability to impair male sexual performance, creating the inability to achieve an erection [and] decreases libido... The potential side effects, especially the long-term side effects of the drug, should be the overriding concerns to both the users and the manufacturer."


Dr. Bosley also said of Propecia (generic name: finasteride) that "the results attained during the clinical trials would immediately be dismissed as unacceptable by our standards." All of which is enormously ironic, say Bosley patients, particularly the assertion about Propecia being unacceptable by the standards of Dr. Bosley. For as shortly as three years after Dr. Bosley issued his stern warning of Propecia, Bosley Medical doctors began prescribing the risky drug.


Within a few months of starting on Propecia, [Julian] Parks says he developed excruciating pain in one testicle, which lasted two years. A few years later, while still on the drug—though at half-dose—he says he developed Peyronie's disease, a painful disorder characterized by the growth of fibrous scar tissue inside the penis, which often causes curvature of the erect organ. Parks, who says he previously had no major health concerns, finally quit the drug in 2006 after suffering other side effects. To this day, most of them have yet to resolve themselves.


Seven weeks after starting on finasteride, the previously healthy [Thomas] Schultz says he became extremely depressed and was beset by panic attacks. That while witnessing his genitals shrink to tiny proportions and grow completely numb. And though he quit the drug two weeks later, Schultz says his health rapidly worsened.


Among his side effects—which continue to afflict him to this day—have been loss of libido, impotence, breast enlargement, prostate pain, muscle aches, cognitive dysfunction, anhedonia and severe insomnia, as well as Peyronie's disease. Meanwhile, Schultz says he has consulted some of L.A.'s top urologists, neurologists and endocrinologists, all of whom have told him there's nothing they can do to help. When Schultz discovered that Dr. Bosley had issued a press release in 1997 warning of Propecia's dangers, he said, "I grew sick to my stomach at his betrayal of innocent, unsuspecting people like myself."


Known clinically as Post-Finasteride Syndrome, the condition that has ravaged Shultz, Parks and thousands like them around the globe is marked by sexual, neurological, hormonal and physical side effects—including impotence, Peyronie's disease, testosterone deficiency and depression—that do not resolve themselves after quitting Propecia."

I think that these guys are psychiatric cases, who would well fit to this forum. There is a plenty of their colleagues here.