The problem with Finasteride.

[Parker]

I just wanted to clear up a misconception that I keep seeing on this forum.

Everyone seems to blame the sexual side effects associated with Finasteride/Dustasteride on the reduction in DHT caused by the drugs.

That has lead to the assumption that other DHT inhibitors such as Saw Palmetto can cause sexual side effects too.


After spending time with the #2 mens health doctor in Sydney I've learnt that this is not the case.

In fact drugs like Finasteride in some cases cause our hormonal receptors to become less sensitive.

This is why many of the side effects are similar to the effects of having low testosterone or other hormonal deficiencies, despite testosterone levels being unaffected by the drug.

The DHT reduction is not responsible for these side effects.


The implication of this is that as far as we know, you can take any other safe DHT inhibitor without worrying about Finasteride like side effects.
Medication like Saw Palmetto may not be as effective as Fin, but it won't effect your hormone receptors.

[Aames]

I've heard of people getting fin-like sides on saw palmetto. Furthermore, how do you explain the cases of people with PFS who claim that their hair is no longer falling out? Wouldn't that be a result of perpetually low DHT? Why does TRT work for some PFS patients? Truthfully, I don't think anyone knows for sure what causes these sides, but I feel like lower DHT makes the most sense.

[Parker]

I've heard of people getting fin-like sides on saw palmetto. Furthermore, how do you explain the cases of people with PFS who claim that their hair is no longer falling out? Wouldn't that be a result of perpetually low DHT? Why does TRT work for some PFS patients? Truthfully, I don't think anyone knows for sure what causes these sides, but I feel like lower DHT makes the most sense.

I would guess that people who get fin like sides on Saw Palmetto would generally be psychological effects from worrying too much about getting these sides.
The study I was shown, showed no difference in sexual function between the control group and the Saw Palmetto group.

Worrying too much/increased anxiety = lower lobido, weaker errections, lower semen quantity, no morning erections etc etc... Literally exactly the same signs as finsateride side effects.



I should know, I've experienced all of the finasteride side effects after being on it briefly.
I thought I had PFS for over a month.

Now that I know the truth and have found a risk free solution to my hair loss and stopped worrying so much, everything has returned to normal and I'm fine.

The mind is powerful.

Furthermore, how do you explain the cases of people with PFS who claim that their hair is no longer falling out? Wouldn't that be a result of perpetually low DHT?

I don't know but many peoples hair loss suddenly stops or slows down for many years without intervention. Maybe this would have happened anyway?

On the counter, if PFS is caused by permanently lowered DHT then why do most men continue to lose hair after stopping the drug?

Why does TRT work for some PFS patients?

I'm just guessing but Testosterone works for some PFS patients because if you have more testosterone, then more testosterone will be activated even if the receptors are less effective.

[StayThick]

So to confirm, you are currently using Saw Palmetto? How much are you taking daily?

Have you experienced ANY sides from usage? I experienced sides from FIN but would be willing to look for a natural alternative like Saw Palmetto if the sides would be little to none. More importantly, has anyone experienced any positive effects from usage?

Thoughts??

[Aeroes]

I just wanted to clear up a misconception that I keep seeing on this forum.

Everyone seems to blame the sexual side effects associated with Finasteride/Dustasteride on the reduction in DHT caused by the drugs.

That has lead to the assumption that other DHT inhibitors such as Saw Palmetto can cause sexual side effects too.


After spending time with the #2 mens health doctor in Sydney I've learnt that this is not the case.

In fact drugs like Finasteride in some cases cause our hormonal receptors to become less sensitive.

This is why many of the side effects are similar to the effects of having low testosterone or other hormonal deficiencies, despite testosterone levels being unaffected by the drug.

The DHT reduction is not responsible for these side effects.


The implication of this is that as far as we know, you can take any other safe DHT inhibitor without worrying about Finasteride like side effects.
Medication like Saw Palmetto may not be as effective as Fin, but it won't effect your hormone receptors.

That's not entirely true.

[Aeroes]

I just wanted to clear up a misconception that I keep seeing on this forum.

Everyone seems to blame the sexual side effects associated with Finasteride/Dustasteride on the reduction in DHT caused by the drugs.

That has lead to the assumption that other DHT inhibitors such as Saw Palmetto can cause sexual side effects too.


After spending time with the #2 mens health doctor in Sydney I've learnt that this is not the case.

In fact drugs like Finasteride in some cases cause our hormonal receptors to become less sensitive.

This is why many of the side effects are similar to the effects of having low testosterone or other hormonal deficiencies, despite testosterone levels being unaffected by the drug.

The DHT reduction is not responsible for these side effects.


The implication of this is that as far as we know, you can take any other safe DHT inhibitor without worrying about Finasteride like side effects.
Medication like Saw Palmetto may not be as effective as Fin, but it won't effect your hormone receptors.

That's not entirely true. The hormone is acting on the receptors not the enzyme. You get the side effects because 5AR2 is being inhibited which means Testosterone ---> 5AR2 ----> DHT Out of the equation. Excess Testosterone then turns into Estradiol to compensate.

Excuse me if i've misintrepretted.

Though I agree Saw Palmetto is the safer root, though there hasn't been any proof of it's action yet?

[Parker]

So to confirm, you are currently using Saw Palmetto? How much are you taking daily?

Have you experienced ANY sides from usage? I experienced sides from FIN but would be willing to look for a natural alternative like Saw Palmetto if the sides would be little to none. More importantly, has anyone experienced any positive effects from usage?

Thoughts??

I've been on Palmetto (w/nettle) for about 5 or 6 months and currently, the only time I can remember my sex drive being higher than this was in my mid-late teens.

Only consistent thing I have noticed change since being on the supplement for a while is that I urinate less often (a good thing because I urinated way too often before).

However I didn't mean to imply that SP was the solution to my hairloss. It may or may not have slowed down my hair loss.

SP is a much less potent DHT blocker and you shouldn't rely on it to stop your hair loss by itself.
I'd at least combine it with Minoxidil, Nizoral and low level laser if it's affordable.

However, someone else I know seems to have stopped their hair loss with just saw palmetto w/nettle and increasing protein in his diet and some fixing some other vitamin deficiencies after a blood test.

He was diffuse thinning before and it stopped and stayed the same for 1 year as of now a few months after starting these supplements.




My solution is pretty unique and I expect wouldn't be practical for the vast majority of people.

[StayThick]

I've been on Palmetto (w/nettle) for about 5 or 6 months and currently, the only time I can remember my sex drive being higher than this was in my mid-late teens.

Only consistent thing I have noticed change since being on the supplement for a while is that I urinate less often (a good thing because I urinated way too often before).

However I didn't mean to imply that SP was the solution to my hairloss. It may or may not have slowed down my hair loss.

SP is a much less potent DHT blocker and you shouldn't rely on it to stop your hair loss by itself.
I'd at least combine it with Minoxidil, Nizoral and low level laser if it's affordable.

However, someone else I know seems to have stopped their hair loss with just saw palmetto w/nettle and increasing protein in his diet and some fixing some other vitamin deficiencies after a blood test.

He was diffuse thinning before and it stopped and stayed the same for 1 year as of now a few months after starting these supplements.




My solution is pretty unique and I expect wouldn't be practical for the vast majority of people.

Thanks for the response. I was just curious on feedback regarding your experience with SP. Very interesting.

How much are you taking daily? And what NW are you currently?

[Parker]

That's not entirely true. The hormone is acting on the receptors not the enzyme. You get the side effects because 5AR2 is being inhibited which means Testosterone ---> 5AR2 ----> DHT Out of the equation. Excess Testosterone then turns into Estradiol to compensate.

Excuse me if i've misintrepretted.

Though I agree Saw Palmetto is the safer root, though there hasn't been any proof of it's action yet?

Thanks for clearing that up
Like I said, I was just relaying information I was told from my doctor and have obviously assumed some things I shouldn't have, but the main point stands.

He never actually said that DHT doesn't effect sex drive, rather that the main problem with finasteride was the damage to hormone receptors.

I don't believe inhibiting DHT can have any long term effects. It just doesn't make any sense why it would and there is no proof of it.



No it hasn't been FDA approved to treat hair loss. But neither have various things including Dustasteride.

IMO some of these things get a little political, but I feel there is enough evidence out there to give it a try. Some studies but none that you would trust with your life.

Some people claim that it causes increased shedding as well.

[Parker]

Thanks for the response. I was just curious on feedback regarding your experience with SP. Very interesting.

How much are you taking daily? And what NW are you currently?

I don't know what norwood I am. I've purposely not diagnosed myself and would prefer to keep it that way.
I have a thinned crown and reasonably heavily receded temples and sides of forehead.
Still able to cover most of the receded area in hair without people recognising I'm balding. But would create a bit of a shock to people when I lift them up.

I can't remember what the dosage is and I don't have the bottle with me, but I'm taking the recommended amount for BPH, whatever that is.

I doubt that SP is having any effect on my hair so far. But I hear it takes a little longer to start than other treatments.

[Aeroes]

Thanks for clearing that up
Like I said, I was just relaying information I was told from my doctor and have obviously assumed some things I shouldn't have, but the main point stands.

He never actually said that DHT doesn't effect sex drive, rather that the main problem with finasteride was the damage to hormone receptors.

I don't believe inhibiting DHT can have any long term effects. It just doesn't make any sense why it would and there is no proof of it.



No it hasn't been FDA approved to treat hair loss. But neither have various things including Dustasteride.

IMO some of these things get a little political, but I feel there is enough evidence out there to give it a try. Some studies but none that you would trust with your life.

Some people claim that it causes increased shedding as well.

I can appreciate your post. Though DHT plays a lot more roles in your body than "Sex Drive", Increasing prostate size and Baldness. It helps with the maintenance of penile tissue, keep the size in check.

[Aeroes]

Actions of finasteride

[montreal6130]

sorry but the original post does not make sense to me.

The active ingredient finasteride lowers DHT. That is simply what it does. Now, if the consequence of lowering DHT is that in 'some cases it causes our hormonal receptors to become less sensitive'...that reduced sensitivity is still triggered by the lowering of DHT. So, you can argue that the actual cause of side effects is not lowered DHT (reduced sensitivity is) but it does get triggered by the process of lowering DHT.

It is like saying that 'DHT does not cause MPB' (it does not). No one knows why one is predisposed to balding and another isn't. But in those that are we know that DHT is what actually kills the hair.

that would also imply that taking Saw Palmetto can have negative side effects but much less likely due to the fact that it does not significantly lower DHT.

[Aeroes]

I don't know if i'm missing the point here, but I know reducing DHT will effect the body..it definitely has a reaction by lowering it..why do you think your hair loss stops...

DHT

-Male pattern Baldness
-Fertility
-Prostate size & function
-Male Libido
-Keeps estrogen in balance
-Nitric Oxide
-Maintenance of gentile structure and size

Let me know how Saw Palmetto goes. Have you had any improvements?

[Parker]

sorry but the original post does not make sense to me.

The active ingredient finasteride lowers DHT. That is simply what it does. Now, if the consequence of lowering DHT is that in 'some cases it causes our hormonal receptors to become less sensitive'...that reduced sensitivity is still triggered by the lowering of DHT. So, you can argue that the actual cause of side effects is not lowered DHT (reduced sensitivity is) but it does get triggered by the process of lowering DHT.

It is like saying that 'DHT does not cause MPB' (it does not). No one knows why one is predisposed to balding and another isn't. But in those that are we know that DHT is what actually kills the hair.

that would also imply that taking Saw Palmetto can have negative side effects but much less likely due to the fact that it does not significantly lower DHT.

It was explained to me implicitly as though the receptor damage is an unrelated side effect of finasteride, without low DHT being responsible for the receptor damage.



Again, I'm staying humble to the fact that I'm a layman interpreting information from someone else and I could have misunderstood some things.

This particular doctor has exceedingly high qualifications in the subject and gives lectures to general practitioners.
He has travelled to europe for lectures purely to hear about new findings on this drug.
Also prescribes it to some of his older patients with hair loss.

So anything academically wrong that I've said is probably just my misinterpretation.