Am I a Norwood 2 or 3? (or 2A or 3A?)

[2020]

There was a famous case about 100 years ago of a set of twins who were genetically susceptible to hair loss. One twin lost his hair as expected but the other twin had been castrated due to mental illness, so this twin still had a full head of hair. The physician injected the castrated twin with testosterone, and the castrated twin quickly lost all of his scalp hair except that on the sides on back.

yes and? T converts to DHT doesn't it?

It could be reflex hyperandrogenicity as you said, but it could also be simple catch-up. I have no doubt that if I stopped taking dutasteride today, within a year I would have lost 30% of the hair on my head, and would probably have a lot more body hair as well. This would not be due to reflex hyperandrogenicity, but rather due to my genes playing catch-up. My genes say I'm supposed to be a lot more bald and have a lot more body hair than I do right now. I've actually lost a bit of body hair from dutasteride, and my facial hair has thinned out by approximately 50% as well.

that is an insanely stupid theory... there is no such thing as a catch up loss. Your genes have no ****ing idea how much hair you should have at July 1, 2012. AR sensitivity is inherited and that's that.

What is a fact is that AR sensitivity DOES GO UP when 5AR inhibitors are introduced to your body.

I don't understand what you're saying.

VAST MAJORITY of your DHT is biologically INACTIVE.

I haven't seen any evidence of what you're describing. I also don't understand your question. If someone isn't already losing hair, why would they get on finasteride or dutasteride? As a purely preventive measure? I doubt there are many people without an AGA diagnosis taking these drugs. Their hair loss might be minor, but the process has started in the vast majority of them. The fact that they continue to lose hair after getting on them is not proof that the drugs have caused the continued hair loss, is it? They were losing hair before getting on the drugs, so it seems odd to blame the drugs for the continued hair loss.

I meant to say that some people who are losing hair and when they start using finasteride, still lose hair despite it being VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE if fin truly blocked 70% of DHT and left your AR at the same sensitivity...

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/hair_loss_research/hyperandrogenicity.cfm

"A: When the effects of androgens in the body are lessened, e.g. through lowering DHT or by systemic hormone receptor blockade, the body seeks equilibrium through a process called upregulation. This can take the form of increased hormone production and/or increased tissue sensitivity to the remaining hormones. The reason side effects usually gradually disappear with finasteride is probably due to such upregulation. In a small percentage of individuals, it may be that this process overshoots the mark, resulting in significant hyperandrogenicity. This is marked by such signs as greatly increased facial oil, increased pimples, and greatly elevated libido.It's possible that in certain cases such hyperandrogenicity overcomes the hair-protective effect of, say, finasteride, though this does not appear to be the case for the vast majority of people."

right, and?

I am unsure why you think it is incredibly unlikely that I will still have most of my hair 10 years from now when I haven't lost any in 6 years. You said that the decline happens a couple years in, well, mine didn't.

yeah 6 years ain't that long in the business.... even the people on fin can get that. The point is that eventually YOU WILL start losing hair even though you shouldn't....

I have seen probably 20-30 cases posted on forums over the years, but you should also consider that people who have maintained their hair and are completely/mostly satisfied with it are a lot less likely to begin posting/continue posting on internet forums dedicated to hair loss.

I've seen studies that are done over 10 years.... half of those people won't make it to 10 years with the same amount of hair

[Maradona]

yes and? T converts to DHT doesn't it?




that is an insanely stupid theory... there is no such thing as a catch up loss. Your genes have no ****ing idea how much hair you should have at July 1, 2012. AR sensitivity is inherited and that's that.

What is a fact is that AR sensitivity DOES GO UP when 5AR inhibitors are introduced to your body.




VAST MAJORITY of your DHT is biologically INACTIVE.





I meant to say that some people who are losing hair and when they start using finasteride, still lose hair despite it being VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE if fin truly blocked 70% of DHT and left your AR at the same sensitivity...





right, and?



yeah 6 years ain't that long in the business.... even the people on fin can get that. The point is that eventually YOU WILL start losing hair even though you shouldn't....




I've seen studies that are done over 10 years.... half of those people won't make it to 10 years with the same amount of hair

Let me ask you a favor 2020. Save me the hours of research and tell me which things are you on in order of priority.

You're after PGD2 blockers as number 1 priority etc...

I might experiment with other things than RU.

[2020]

Let me ask you a favor 2020. Save me the hours of research and tell me which things are you on in order of priority.

You're after PGD2 blockers as number 1 priority etc...

I might experiment with other things than RU.

what do you mean? You wanna know my regimen?

[Kirby_]

Back on track, I've heard many times, in passing, claims that diffuse thinners like me "respond well" or "respond best" to treatment. Is this true? Does that mean that diffuse thinners are more likely to regrow and retain decent amounts of hair with treatments?

(Sorry about the panic post last week, I was having serious panic attacks. My main issue is that I certainly didn't look 'balding' to the naked eye before treatment with fin and Nizoral, but now I do.)

[BaldinLikeBaldwin]

I think the logic would be that it's easier to treat "thin areas" than bald spots

then again with current treatments any type of regrowth is not something you can expect imo

[Kirby_]

Well I realise that I'm almost certainly too far gone for treatments to ever do anything good for me, as I see it it's like buying a lottery ticket and hoping in vain that you're one of the lucky few that have sucess.

[Tracy C]

I think the logic would be that it's easier to treat "thin areas" than bald spots

Exactly.

then again with current treatments any type of regrowth is not something you can expect imo

I don't really agree with this because I grew a lot of hair back myself. It is best to plan for the worst and hope for the best though. Even if you don't have any re-growth, you should at least be able to maintain what you have so you don't loose any more. Personally, I think Kirby is in better shape than he thinks he is. He doesn't look any worse now than he did before he started and you just never know, once he has been treating it long enough to actually see any benefit, he might be surprised at with he sees.

[Kirby_]

^ I hope so. As I said, for me it's buying a Euromillions lottery ticket every Friday. I don't expect to hit the jackpot, but I can't expect anything unless I enter the competition. There have been some rather impressive regrowth stories detailed on other forums (user RSR40 on HLH for example), that at least demonstrate what is possible.

If I get back to baseline, with a teeny bit more, I can live with that until some of the next-gen treatments start to arrive. (Really, I took a bit hit from baseline in the initial shed which the low-res photos I've posted don't show.)

[Kirby_]

Also, I've noticed that while my thin patch directly on top (midscalp?) is thinning, everything 'south' of the swirl, is nearly solid. Could that be an indicator of anything, or just my 'pattern'?

[Tracy C]

You should be fine. Just stick with the treatments and give it reasonable time - at least a full 12 months.

[25 going on 65]

Also, I've noticed that while my thin patch directly on top (midscalp?) is thinning, everything 'south' of the swirl, is nearly solid. Could that be an indicator of anything, or just my 'pattern'?

It's just your pattern most likely. There is a pretty huge variation in MPB patterns, especially for diffuse thinners like ourselves.

[mpb47]

Also, I've noticed that while my thin patch directly on top (midscalp?) is thinning, everything 'south' of the swirl, is nearly solid. Could that be an indicator of anything, or just my 'pattern'?

Just keep an eye on it as you get older. My relatives never went south there until they were all around 50 or so.

[Kirby_]

^ TBH, I can see two scenarios emerging. Either my hair won't be viable this time next year, despite or because of Propecia and the heavy diffuse loss. Or I won't have to worry in the long term about MPB, because much better treatment options will be available, easily by the time I'm 40... It's either/or, as I see it.

[Kirby_]

Added photo from last August to prove that my hair was relatively thick then. Is far worse now.

[Kirby_]

I'm convinced that either fin is destroying my hair, or I have something as well as MPB that is exacerbating my hair loss, possibly in conjunction with fin.