Need New source of 15% Minoxidil-former Dr. Lee Patient

[Tracy C]

Warlord,

If you feel I am wasting your time, you are not worth my time. I know I am right and you are wrong. That is good enough for me. I do not gain anything from this so I do not need to take it any farther. Call in during the Bald Truth Talk broadcast this Sunday and pose your question.

[mpb47]

Nothing wrong with disagreeing but no reason for this to get uncivilized.
Now kiss and make up

[WarLord]

Warlord,

If you feel I am wasting your time, you are not worth my time. I know I am right and you are wrong. That is good enough for me. I do not gain anything from this so I do not need to take it any farther. Call in during the Bald Truth Talk broadcast this Sunday and pose your question.

And the link to the research you quoted...?

[Davey Jones]

I can't personally find a study comparing anything but the 5% and the 2% (and placebo, of course) either. It's a pretty common question, so it'd be good to have a clear answer. It's not unfair to ask to see a study (but without being a dick about it).

Does anyone know of a study they could link to or post that shows that the benefits of monoxidil diminish at or before 15%?

[Tracy C]

I can't personally find a study comparing anything but the 5% and the 2% (and placebo, of course) either.

During Upjohn's research, they also tested higher doses of Minoxidil. Every drug company does. It is standard procedure to do so. Since they found good reason not to pursue marketing higher dose blends, they did not include higher percentages in their FDA study. There would be no point in doing so. Anyone who truly understands how research works would know that. How else do you think they determined the doses they submitted to the FDA? They didn't pull it out of the air.

The important thing is Upjohn noted that higher doses primarily only increased the chances of experiencing the possible negative side effects and did not increase the efficacy in any significant way. This is stated on every bottle of Rogaine that you buy. This information alone should be more than enough for anyone who has even the slightest little bit of common sense.

All I have to say to Warlord is this. It is your body. Do with it what you want. But do not recommend others to use any product that falls outside of what the FDA has approved. Especially when we are talking about higher doses like this. Doses high enough to cause harm. Doing so is irresponsible and unethical.

[WarLord]

During Upjohn's research, they also tested higher doses of Minoxidil. Every drug company does. It is standard procedure to do so. Since they found good reason not to pursue marketing higher dose blends, they did not include higher percentages in their FDA study. There would be no point in doing so. Anyone who truly understands how research works would know that. How else do you think they determined the doses they submitted to the FDA? They didn't pull it out of the air.

The important thing is Upjohn noted that higher doses primarily only increased the chances of experiencing the possible negative side effects and did not increase the efficacy in any significant way. This is stated on every bottle of Rogaine that you buy. This information alone should be more than enough for anyone who has even the slightest little bit of common sense.

All I have to say to Warlord is this. It is your body. Do with it what you want. But do not recommend others to use any product that falls outside of what the FDA has approved. Especially when we are talking about higher doses like this. Doses high enough to cause harm. Doing so is irresponsible and unethical.

And where are the studies?! They approved the 2% version in 1988, and the 5% version in 1997! Dear Tracy ABCD, you made these claims up. There has been no research on higher minoxidil versions. The experience of mine (and many others) clearly shows that the higher the dose, the better the results. If you actually bothered to read internet forums, you would know it as well. However, you are obviously ignorant of these experiences and the only reason, why you waste your time here on this forum is that you need to feel self-important about your presumed wisdom - at the expenses of other people, whom the higher minoxidil versions could help.

[WarLord]

I can't personally find a study comparing anything but the 5% and the 2% (and placebo, of course) either. It's a pretty common question, so it'd be good to have a clear answer. It's not unfair to ask to see a study (but without being a dick about it).

Does anyone know of a study they could link to or post that shows that the benefits of monoxidil diminish at or before 15%?

There exists no such a study. However, there exists a lot of jackasses lurking about hairloss forums, who lecture other people, how certain drugs should work. The most grotesque thing is that they often have no personal experience with the stuffs that they so passionately denigrate.

[Davey Jones]

The important thing is Upjohn noted that higher doses primarily only increased the chances of experiencing the possible negative side effects and did not increase the efficacy in any significant way. This is stated on every bottle of Rogaine that you buy. This information alone should be more than enough for anyone who has even the slightest little bit of common sense.

I don't really think it's fair to suggest the lack of common sense when someone doesn't trust the drug industry. More effective or not, it could have easily come down to which most cost effective concentration would create results that people would pay for. Up'ing an active ingredient to 15% could be costly. If they thought the addition wouldn't be justified by an equal or greater increase in revenue, they might not have been interested in pursuing that route.

I gather that you don't have access to the study directly, or you would have posted proof a long time ago to shut Warlord up. Do you know of anyone who has purchased the Upjohn study (on this site or otherwise)? Warlord and myself aren't trying to say you're wrong. We honestly just have a healthy skepticism and would like to personally see the numbers. You battle with hairloss too, Tracy, so you know how important it is to live with a healthy skepticism of all statements while trying to wade through this industry.

Call in during the Bald Truth Talk broadcast this Sunday and pose your question.

This is very good advice.

[bryceverest]

15% Minoxidil was TOO MUCH COMPETITION

I must respectfully disagree with Tracy on this one.

There are several studies that have demonstrated a dose dependent positive effect, i.e. the higher the strength, the more hair grown. The fact that Upjohn eventually made the 5% available reflects this common knowledge. A recent study regarding this is “Randomized clinical trial comparing 5% and 1% topical Minoxidil for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in Japanese men” J Dermatol. 2009 Aug;36(8):437-46. Most adverse reactions occur with any concentration. I could not find comparison of 5% and 15%, but from the abstract below, you can see the reactions are about the same, and without statistical significant increase:

Minoxidil is efficacious in inducing hair growth in patients with androgenetic alopecia by inducing hair follicles to undergo transition from the early to late anagen phase. Although the efficacy of 1% topical minoxidil has been confirmed in Japan, no controlled study of 5% topical minoxidil has been conducted using male Japanese subjects. The objective of this trial was to verify the superiority in clinical efficacy of 5% topical minoxidil to 1% topical minoxidil in a double-blind controlled study with male, Japanese androgenetic alopecia patients as the subjects. The trial included 300 Japanese male patients aged 20 years or older with androgenetic alopecia who were administered either 5% topical minoxidil (n = 150) or 1% topical minoxidil (n = 150) for 24 weeks. The mean change from the baseline in non-vellus hair/cm(2), the primary efficacy variable, was 26.4 (n = 142) in the 5% topical minoxidil group and 21.2 (n = 144) in the 1% topical minoxidil group at 16 weeks, the main time point for the evaluation. The difference between the groups was significant (P = 0.020). The incidence of adverse events was 8.7% (13/150) in the 5% group and 5.3% (8/150) in the 1% group, with no significant difference between the groups (chi(2)-test: P = 0.258). Our findings confirmed the superiority of 5% topical minoxidil to 1% topical minoxidil in treating Japanese men with androgenetic alopecia.


Studies discussing adverse Minoxidil side effects that I have found usually identify skin reactions of various kinds. For example, in the study “Minoxidil use in dermatology, side effects and recent patents”, it was found that “The most common adverse reactions of the topical formulation are limited to irritant and allergic contact dermatitis on the scalp “ There are also reported reactions that are more concerning, such as central chorioretinopathy from 2% Minoxidil topical use, or lung effusion with 2% Minoxidil use in a patient with kidney failure. All the adverse events that I could find occur from all dosages, i.e. 2%, 5% and even 1%. This would make sense, since most reactions are not dose dependent, but instead tend to be time/dose dependent. In other words, if your body doesn’t like it, it will eventually react to it.

Pharmaceutical companies like Upjohn are in the business of making money. I don’t think they would stop because of concerns about patient harm without significant force, i.e. a study clearly identifying a problem, that would force them to stop making money. I have also investigated, and many sources discuss the known difficulty in formulating high strengths of Minoxidil. Apparently, the company initially made 2% Minoxidil because they could not get the strength up much beyond this. Once they were able to increase to 5%, they found it more effective than 2%. Only a few companies have been able to get up to 10% or 15% without precipitation problems. I would suggest that if Upjohn had the ability to produce 15% Minoxidil in a cost effective way, they would have. With the patent gone, they must compete with generics. Since they are still trying to make money on their 5% product, by promoting Rogaine Foam, I suspect they would not want people switching to 15% unless they were able to produce that too and compete.

I too would like to see the studies supporting medical problems with 15% Minoxidil. I too saw more growth with 15% while I was able to get it. Until I see such a study, I would suggest that it is more an economic problem, with the patients like us caught in the crosshairs.

[Tracy C]

And where are the studies?!

You have grey matter. Use it. There is no separate study. That does not mean the knowledge does not exist. It does exist. That knowledge was gained during testing of the drug to determine what doses would be safe. It is the reason Upjohn designed there studies around 2% and 5% blends. Again, you have grey matter. Use it.

What you do to your body is your business. Higher percentages present unacceptable health risks. That is the reason providers of those high percentage blends were shut down by the FDA. No other reason. That is enough reason. Now stop this nonsense. Call in to the broadcast on Sunday and pose your question.

[Tracy C]

bryceverest,

The Bald Truth Talk show is broadcast on Sunday at 8:00pm eastern time. Call in during the show and talk it over.

[WarLord]

You have grey matter. Use it. There is no separate study. That does not mean the knowledge does not exist. It does exist. That knowledge was gained during testing of the drug to determine what doses would be safe.

And the source of this information is....? Oh, don't bother to reply. You have no source. You made it up.

[WarLord]

I must respectfully disagree with Tracy on this one.

There are several studies that have demonstrated a dose dependent positive effect, i.e. the higher the strength, the more hair grown. The fact that Upjohn eventually made the 5% available reflects this common knowledge. A recent study regarding this is “Randomized clinical trial comparing 5% and 1% topical Minoxidil for the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in Japanese men” J Dermatol. 2009 Aug;36(8):437-46. Most adverse reactions occur with any concentration. I could not find comparison of 5% and 15%, but from the abstract below, you can see the reactions are about the same, and without statistical significant increase:

Minoxidil is efficacious in inducing hair growth in patients with androgenetic alopecia by inducing hair follicles to undergo transition from the early to late anagen phase. Although the efficacy of 1% topical minoxidil has been confirmed in Japan, no controlled study of 5% topical minoxidil has been conducted using male Japanese subjects. The objective of this trial was to verify the superiority in clinical efficacy of 5% topical minoxidil to 1% topical minoxidil in a double-blind controlled study with male, Japanese androgenetic alopecia patients as the subjects. The trial included 300 Japanese male patients aged 20 years or older with androgenetic alopecia who were administered either 5% topical minoxidil (n = 150) or 1% topical minoxidil (n = 150) for 24 weeks. The mean change from the baseline in non-vellus hair/cm(2), the primary efficacy variable, was 26.4 (n = 142) in the 5% topical minoxidil group and 21.2 (n = 144) in the 1% topical minoxidil group at 16 weeks, the main time point for the evaluation. The difference between the groups was significant (P = 0.020). The incidence of adverse events was 8.7% (13/150) in the 5% group and 5.3% (8/150) in the 1% group, with no significant difference between the groups (chi(2)-test: P = 0.258). Our findings confirmed the superiority of 5% topical minoxidil to 1% topical minoxidil in treating Japanese men with androgenetic alopecia.


Studies discussing adverse Minoxidil side effects that I have found usually identify skin reactions of various kinds. For example, in the study “Minoxidil use in dermatology, side effects and recent patents”, it was found that “The most common adverse reactions of the topical formulation are limited to irritant and allergic contact dermatitis on the scalp “ There are also reported reactions that are more concerning, such as central chorioretinopathy from 2% Minoxidil topical use, or lung effusion with 2% Minoxidil use in a patient with kidney failure. All the adverse events that I could find occur from all dosages, i.e. 2%, 5% and even 1%. This would make sense, since most reactions are not dose dependent, but instead tend to be time/dose dependent. In other words, if your body doesn’t like it, it will eventually react to it.

Pharmaceutical companies like Upjohn are in the business of making money. I don’t think they would stop because of concerns about patient harm without significant force, i.e. a study clearly identifying a problem, that would force them to stop making money. I have also investigated, and many sources discuss the known difficulty in formulating high strengths of Minoxidil. Apparently, the company initially made 2% Minoxidil because they could not get the strength up much beyond this. Once they were able to increase to 5%, they found it more effective than 2%. Only a few companies have been able to get up to 10% or 15% without precipitation problems. I would suggest that if Upjohn had the ability to produce 15% Minoxidil in a cost effective way, they would have. With the patent gone, they must compete with generics. Since they are still trying to make money on their 5% product, by promoting Rogaine Foam, I suspect they would not want people switching to 15% unless they were able to produce that too and compete.

I too would like to see the studies supporting medical problems with 15% Minoxidil. I too saw more growth with 15% while I was able to get it. Until I see such a study, I would suggest that it is more an economic problem, with the patients like us caught in the crosshairs.

Yes, the problems with achieving higher concentrations were the main limiting factor. Actually, I regrew no hair on 2% minoxidil (only blonde fuzz), I regrew few thin hairs on 5% minoxidil+retin A, and these thin hairs turned into thick black trees on ******* 15% Plus.

Innumerable pieces of experience in the internet confirm the higher efficiacy of 15% minoxidil over 5% minoxidil. Unfortunately, they also confirm that the 15% concentration may be too strong for some people and cause dramatic telogen effluvium. I myself have been currently fighting the consequences of my 13-months' experiment with 10-15% minoxidil. The stuff regrew some new thick hairs, but completely destroyed my hairline. It's been 4 months since I stopped it, but my hair is still in the worst state ever. So much to the craptrap that there are no differences between minoxidil concentrations.

[WarLord]

What 15% minoxidil did you use, by the way?

[mpb47]

[SIZE="3"]I must respectfully disagree with Tracy on this one.




Studies discussing adverse Minoxidil side effects that I have found usually identify skin reactions of various kinds. For example, in the study “Minoxidil use in dermatology, side effects and recent patents”, it was found that “The most common adverse reactions of the topical formulation are limited to irritant and allergic contact dermatitis on the scalp “ There are also reported reactions that are more concerning, such as central chorioretinopathy from 2% Minoxidil topical use, or lung effusion with 2% Minoxidil use in a patient with kidney failure. All the adverse events that I could find occur from all dosages, i.e. 2%, 5% and even 1%. This would make sense, since most reactions are not dose dependent, but instead tend to be time/dose dependent. In other words, if your body doesn’t like it, it will eventually react to it.

Pharmaceutical companies like Upjohn are in the business of making money. I don’t think they would stop because of concerns about patient harm without significant force, i.e. a study clearly identifying a problem, that would force them to stop making money. I have also investigated, and many sources discuss the known difficulty in formulating high strengths of Minoxidil. Apparently, the company initially made 2% Minoxidil because they could not get the strength up much beyond this. Once they were able to increase to 5%, they found it more effective than 2%. Only a few companies have been able to get up to 10% or 15% without precipitation problems. I would suggest that if Upjohn had the ability to produce 15% Minoxidil in a cost effective way, they would have. With the patent gone, they must compete with generics. Since they are still trying to make money on their 5% product, by promoting Rogaine Foam, I suspect they would not want people switching to 15% unless they were able to produce that too and compete.

I too would like to see the studies supporting medical problems with 15% Minoxidil. I too saw more growth with 15% while I was able to get it. Until I see such a study, I would suggest that it is more an economic problem, with the patients like us caught in the crosshairs.

It may be a case of diminishing returns..that is the side effects outweighed the benefits. Along those same lines it could also be that after a certain % the results do not get any better. So where are the studies?

Well in grad school they taught us that if something is not in a peer reviewed journal, then it didn't happen, doesn't exist, etc.

But Upjohn could have done the studies, didn't like the results and just sat on them

This is just my guess only...