Am 26, experiencing thinning and loss of hair on the crown

[25 going on 65]

kavi,

There is no evidence that alternative remedies work to stop or reverse hair loss. If you want to keep and improve your hair in the long run (i.e. longer than 1-2 years), you'll need either finasteride or dutasteride.
It will probably take at least half a year before you see appreciable results. For some it takes longer than a year - up to two years in rarer cases.

Reports of side effects persisting after quitting finasteride are purely anecdotal at this point. No scientific studies have confirmed them.
It's been around for a long time and is statistically very safe.
Good luck.

[spm]

My advice is if you have any questions ask a doctor or call into the show tonight and ask Spencer. Stressedtothebald is not a md or a expert in hairloss. You can listen to last weeks show and hear Spencer talking about meds and natural remedies. He starts off every week telling us to watch out for these so called products and that there is only 2 FDA approved drugs. I will take Speners advice any day over some so called expert on a forum. Your best plan would be and talk to IAHRS approved doctors. I would love to thank Spencer and Joe for being there for the hair loss community and helping change my life for the better.

Best wishes to all!

[StressedToTheBald]

There is evidence and a number of studies as a proof that natural DHT inhibitors work. Also there are studies that clearly showcase the serious risks and side effects coming from finasteride. Both studies are available online, one needs not to be an expert. Its proposterous though that finasteride promoters here describe this drug as the only, proven and miracle cure while in so many ways this drugs is all things opposite. Whoever wants to trade their health for potential hair regrowth, its a free world, people jump from bridges all the time too..

There are also real doctors, MDs, who haven't put their ethics in the drawer !
Listen to what real doctor says about finasteride here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEGCTMtlgoc

"I have never prescribed it and I never will."

[chrisdav]

Stressed to the Bald, have you personally experienced any of these side effects?

The sample you have taken consists of ONE doctor with pessimistic views.

The huge majority of people are fine and lead healthy lives.

[StressedToTheBald]

Stressed to the Bald, have you personally experienced any of these side effects?

The sample you have taken consists of ONE doctor with pessimistic views.

The huge majority of people are fine and lead healthy lives.

I never tried the drug, nor I will, exactly because of side effects. As I said many times before, if this drug was the answer and without serious risks, I'd be the first one to sign up. But do I need to end up impotent or have the side effects in order to have an opinion on the drug ? I'll rather be on the safe side and use alternative DHT blockers, which is exactly what I am doing right now, and I have absolutely no side effects.

Its not 1 doctor and its not 1 patient..Do I need to post 20 more clips, so my point would be considered as one of higher value or significance ? On this forum alone, go through threads and You'll see there are plenty of people who have quit the drug due to side effects or lack of results.

You keep repeating.. majority.. all right, good for them ! But what about those 5 or 10 or 20 out of 100 people who end up with side effects. What about them, its easy to say they're minority if You are doing ok, but if it happened to You, I'm sure the story would be the other way around.

[25 going on 65]

There is evidence and a number of studies as a proof that natural DHT inhibitors work. Also there are studies that clearly showcase the serious risks and side effects coming from finasteride. Both studies are available online, one needs not to be an expert. Its proposterous though that finasteride promoters here describe this drug as the only, proven and miracle cure while in so many ways this drugs is all things opposite. Whoever wants to trade their health for potential hair regrowth, its a free world, people jump from bridges all the time too..

There are also real doctors, MDs, who haven't put their ethics in the drawer !
Listen to what real doctor says about finasteride here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEGCTMtlgoc

"I have never prescribed it and I never will."

There are limited studies suggesting some natural DHT inhibitors may reduce the amount of DHT in the bloodstream. This says nothing more than that more studies are warranted. These remedies have NOT been shown to stop or reverse MPB (in fact they never seem to in patients who experiment with them).
There are studies showing finasteride has side effects for a very low % of patients, which subside after quitting. There are no studies currently that demonstrate "permanent side effects."

Also, there is no natural law that prohibits doctors from saying silly things. Some do it because they get financial compensation (e.g. from natural supplement companies), some do it because they're superstitious. These are the same reasons you see a handful of scientists who claim man-made gaseous emissions don't affect how the earth's atmosphere retains heat.

For every doctor fear mongering about finasteride, you can find another ten thousand who consider it safe. For every doctor who tells you to take saw palmetto for your hair loss, you can find another ten thousand who consider it a waste of time. But you can listen to the nuts on the fringe if you wish; just don't blame us when the rest of your hair goes.

[chrisdav]

Right so say there is 5 to 100.

There are 10 million people globally who roughly who take finasteride.

So there would be 0.00005% if there were 5 and 0.0001% if there were 100.

It is tiny proportion don't you think?

As I said, the huge majority are fine.

[StressedToTheBald]

There are limited studies suggesting some natural DHT inhibitors may reduce the amount of DHT in the bloodstream.

There is nothing limited about these studies, nor their result is that some natural inhibitors may reduce DHT. Following studies clearly showcase reduction of DHT by natural 5-alpha reductase inhibitors.

^ Prager N, Bickett K, French N,Marcovici G (2002). "A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial to determine the effectiveness of botanically derived inhibitors of 5-a-reductase in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia". J Altern Complement Ther 8: 148-52. PMID 12006122.

^ Raynaud, JP; Cousse, H; Martin, PM (2002). "Inhibition of type 1 and type 2 5alpha-reductase activity by free fatty acids, active ingredients of Permixon.". The Journal of steroid biochemistry and molecular biology 82 (2-3): 233–9. doi:10.1016/S0960-0760(02)00187-5. PMID 12477490.

^ Pais, P (2010). "Potency of a novel saw palmetto ethanol extract, SPET-085, for inhibition of 5alpha-reductase II.". Advances in therapy 27 (8): 555–63. doi:10.1007/s12325-010-0041-6. PMID 20623347.

^ Abe, M; Ito, Y; Oyunzul, L; Oki-Fujino, T; Yamada, S (2009). "Pharmacologically relevant receptor binding characteristics and 5alpha-reductase inhibitory activity of free Fatty acids contained in saw palmetto extract.". Biological & pharmaceutical bulletin 32 (4): 646–50. doi:10.1248/bpb.32.646. PMID 19336899.

^ Edgar AD. Levin R. Constantinou CE. Denis L. "A critical review of the pharmacology of the plant extract of Pygeum africanum in the treatment of LUTS.Neurourology & Urodynamics. 26(4):458-63; discussion 464, 2007" [Review]

^ Fujita R. Liu J. Shimizu K. Konishi F. Noda K. Kumamoto S. Ueda C. Tajiri H. Kaneko S. Suimi Y. Kondo R."Anti-androgenic activities of Ganoderma lucidum.", Journal of Ethnopharmacology. 102(1):107-12, 2005 Oct 31.

There are studies showing finasteride has side effects for a very low % of patients, which subside after quitting. There are no studies currently that demonstrate "permanent side effects."

The study You are probably pointing to:

TABLE 1. Drug-Related Adverse Experiences for Propecia (finasteride 1 mg) in Year 1 (%) MALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS
Propecia
N=945
Decreased Libido 1.8
Erectile Dysfunction 1.3
Ejaculation Disorder
(Decreased Volume of Ejaculate) 1.2 (0.8)
Discontinuation due to drug-related sexual adverse experiences 1.2

Added together it comes to 5,5% of users who have suffered side effects according to this study. This is for 1mg daily. The study never displays these side effects as temporary or permanent. I don't claim ALL are permanent - but one thing is sure - Your side of the story - that ALL go away has no backing proof either !

Some do it because they get financial compensation (e.g. from natural supplement companies), some do it because they're superstitious.

For every doctor fear mongering about finasteride, you can find another ten thousand who consider it safe. For every doctor who tells you to take saw palmetto for your hair loss, you can find another ten thousand who consider it a waste of time. But you can listen to the nuts on the fringe if you wish; just don't blame us when the rest of your hair goes.

Funny thing that You mentioned financial compensation. Its well known that pharmaceutical industry and doctors go hand by hand.. One wouldn't expect a prescribtion for a natural compound.. also hair industry hardly profits from cheap natural DHT inhibitors than cannot be patented or sold heavily.. both pharma industry and doctors profit from you who are willing to pay heavily each year for finasteride & rogaine combo, and pay for lifetime usage.. thats where billions go to each year.

Yeah, surely, ethical doctors are in minority these days, we agree about that. I'd rather go with 1% with whom patient comes 1st, than with 90% of those with whom profits come 1st and patient's health 2nd.

Talking about ethics and honesty, here is another study on how 'safe' finasteride is:

2011.
The new study, carried out by Dr Abdulmaged Traish of the Boston uni medical school and his colleagues, looks into the health effects of the 5α-reductase inhibitors (5α-RIs) finasteride and dutasteride.
Dr Traish and his colleagues write:
Results: Prolonged adverse effects on sexual function such as erectile dysfunction and diminished libido are reported by a subset of men, raising the possibility of a causal relationship ...
We suggest discussion with patients on the potential sexual side effects of 5α-RIs before commencing therapy. Alternative therapies may be considered in the discussion, especially when treating androgenetic alopecia."

[StressedToTheBald]

Right so say there is 5 to 100.

There are 10 million people globally who roughly who take finasteride.

So there would be 0.00005% if there were 5 and 0.0001% if there were 100.

It is tiny proportion don't you think?

As I said, the huge majority are fine.

Yeah, right, good example !
If 10 million people use finasteride worldwide.. and lets assume its only 5% of those suffer from side effects(temporary or permanent)..
It comes down to 500,000 people suffering side effects !
Suddenly its five hundred thousand people.. doesn't feel like a small number to me.

[25 going on 65]

A subset of men report prolonged sexual dysfunction - this does not demonstrate a cause-effect relationship RE: finasteride. All it says is that more studies are warranted. A subset of men on virtually any drug have prolonged sexual dysfunction.
"Alternative therapies may be considered in the discussion" - yes, and the alternatives shown to work are minoxidil and ketoconazole. Unless you count hair systems and transplants.

Of the alternative studies you linked to, only one actually studies the effectiveness of these remedies on alopecia, and it's ten years old. Sounds like nothing much came from it (except another ten years of saw palmetto users reporting a lack of results).

RE: the side effects of finasteride, you just added up the percentages together to arrive at a total of 5.5% of users experiencing side effects. Doesn't work that way, because the percentages overlap.

And yes, doctors can receive incentives from pharm companies just as they can from supplement companies. The difference between the two camps of doctors we're referring to is that the "untrustworthy 90%" has more than a decade of data to back them up, while the 1% "who put patients first" (not sure how you arrived at those figures) does not.

I don't know what you want us to tell you. You're the latest in a long procession of men who have tried to stop MPB in the supplements section of the supermarket, only to free fall down the Norwood scale.
I'm one in a long procession of men who have stopped MPB with proven treatments. Yes, I give pharm companies a few hundred bucks per year, because it allows me to keep my hair for less than the cost of a TV or bicycle. Strikes me as a worthwhile investment.
Given this choice, you are still standing over there in the bald dudes' line, and encouraging the rest of us to go with you. I don't get it.

[StressedToTheBald]

A subset of men report prolonged sexual dysfunction - this does not demonstrate a cause-effect relationship RE: finasteride. All it says is that more studies are warranted. A subset of men on virtually any drug have prolonged sexual dysfunction.
"Alternative therapies may be considered in the discussion" - yes, and the alternatives shown to work are minoxidil and ketoconazole. Unless you count hair systems and transplants.

Prolonged sexual dysfunction. Period. No, not virtually any drug causes the same and no no more studies are needed to display the obvious - that finasteride did it. As for alternatives, DHT blocking alternatives, natural alternatives.

Of the alternative studies you linked to, only one actually studies the effectiveness of these remedies on alopecia, and it's ten years old. Sounds like nothing much came from it (except another ten years of saw palmetto users reporting a lack of results).

They all show effectiveness, and what the age of the study has to do with anything.. nothing much came from finasteride, still its more than 10 years old.. its not the miracle drug its advertised to be, its hazardous, requires lifetime usage and costs for life.

RE: the side effects of finasteride, you just added up the percentages together to arrive at a total of 5.5% of users experiencing side effects. Doesn't work that way, because the percentages overlap.

No, the study doesn't say that percentages overlap.

And yes, doctors can receive incentives from pharm companies just as they can from supplement companies. The difference between the two camps of doctors we're referring to is that the "untrustworthy 90%" has more than a decade of data to back them up, while the 1% "who put patients first" (not sure how you arrived at those figures) does not.

Well, I'll bet on my remaining hair that nearly all of their incentives come not from supplement but drugs companies. A decade of what, 'proven 3'.. all I see is billions per year for these drugs.. and in the sense that they have data to back it up.. the data you proudly speak of also includes serious side effects, 5-20% of side effects to be precise and leaving a good number of patients with at least one more much more serious medical condition that needs to be treated.

I don't know what you want us to tell you. You're the latest in a long procession of men who have tried to stop MPB in the supplements section of the supermarket, only to free fall down the Norwood scale.
I'm one in a long procession of men who have stopped MPB with proven treatments. Yes, I give pharm companies a few hundred bucks per year, because it allows me to keep my hair for less than the cost of a TV or bicycle. Strikes me as a worthwhile investment.
Given this choice, you are still standing over there in the bald dudes' line, and encouraging the rest of us to go with you. I don't get it.

For Your information, I haven't free fallen on anything. My condition ain't any worse than it was years ago, it only can get better, and with natural DHT inhibitors I am slowly already noticing small initial results. I am not encouraging anyone to do anything, I am putting out my perspective regarding finasteride and you are pointing yours.. they happen to be the 2 very opposite sides.

[25 going on 65]

The 2011 study still does not demonstrate a cause-effect relationship between finasteride and prolonged sexual dysfunction.
I didn't say virtually any drug causes prolonged sexual dysfunction, I said a subset of men on any drug experiences prolonged sexual dysfunction - because x% of the population experiences this with or without drugs.
Correlation is not cause. Consider: 1.8% of men in finasteride trials reported decreased libido. 1.3% of the control group (only taking placebo) reported decreased libido also. This does not mean placebos cause decreased libido in 1.3% of men.
The "natural DHT blocking alternatives" is your own spin - the text itself only mentions that alternatives can be discussed. The only proven alternatives are ketoconazole, minoxidil, surgery and hair systems. I don't know if the author is aware of that or not, but that's the reality.

Not all of the studies you cited show effectiveness of natural remedies for MPB - in fact only one of them even tries to determine efficacy for that purpose. The age of the study is relevant because more evidence should have come to light in the last decade if saw palmetto was an effective treatment for MPB.
"Nothing much has come from finasteride" - incorrect. We now have a decade and a half of data showing finasteride to be safe and effective. Some users have maintained their hairlines on it for more than ten years; none have done so on natural remedies.

Also, the study doesn't have to say that percentages overlap. It reports the rate of occurrence for each individual side effect. You assumed no one in the study experienced more than one side effect, which is why you added all the percentages together.
But while we're on the subject, I'll bring up again that 1.3% of placebo users in trials reported decreased libido compared to 1.8% of finasteride users. That indicates that finasteride may have caused decreased libido in 0.5% of users, or 1 out of every 200. If we take the difference between finasteride and placebo in each side effect, and assume there is NO overlap (meaning no participant had more than one side effect at a time - which is ridiculous, but we'll assume that for argument's sake), that still leaves us with a miniscule % of finasteride users who experience side effects. And studies do indicate that these subside when quitting the drug.

Incentives for doctors come from a variety of sources, including pharm companies and supplement companies.
And yes, pharm companies are out to make money. That shouldn't surprise anyone. So are supplement companies. The difference is that pharm hair loss treatments have proven to work; not so with supplement industry remedies.

Your claim that 5-20% of Big 3 users experience serious side effects is completely made up. And the claim that any of these treatments have left men with more serious, persistent side effects has yet to be confirmed. Correlation is not cause.

I'm glad to hear you're not currently losing hair at a rapid rate. Men afflicted with MPB sometimes go through extended periods of time with minimal hair loss, giving the impression that the process has stalled (this is even true of men not using any hair loss treatments). It almost always resumes within a couple years.
If you're not free falling down the NW scale, you're creeping down it, and will be until you get serious about treating your hair loss.

[WashedOut]

I am curious to see if stressedtobebald will have any success on these natural treatments. Would be nice to see pictures.

[StressedToTheBald]

What then is the cause of prolonged sexual dysfunction ?
I can agree with you to a point that a few guys in their late age might develop similar conditions anyway, but you cannot back that up, in the sense that this condition does not only affect old people who are in the 'right age' for such things to happen.

Depends once again what one's view on proven is. If you claim FDA approved equals proven, then yes only the stuff you mention is 'proven'. But to be fair, once again, FDA does not regulate natural compounds and free ingredients, including the natural DHT blockers.

Purpose and the game of words. Dutasteride - 5mg finasteride is prescribed for BPH. Tell me please, if 1mg finasteride works for MPB, does that mean that higher rated 5mg Dutasteride will not work for MPB simply because of the fact that this drug is not officially prescribed for baldness but for enlarged prostate, BPH..

You also have a decade of serious side effects with finasteride ! And thousands who have quit due to side effects or lack of results. You always fail to mention the negative sides. You claim none of the natural DHT inhibitors users have maintained or regrown hair in the meantime.. FALSE. Big time false ! Read the studies, read the beta sitosterol + saw palmetto studies, you will find 60% success ratings.

Why do you suppose that all percantages overalap ? Ok, it might not be 5,5%, maybe its 4,5, hell even if its 3%.. that means theres 33,333+ people in a million who suffer from either permanent or temporary side effects !

Back to the issue of proven vs. not proven again. Who decides whats proven and whats not ? You are throwing away plenty of studies simply because they are small, deal with natural ingredients. Yet on the other hand you are praising pharma studies because you have faith in their product.

Has to be confirmed.. permanent side effects. If the company you are praising would go public with the fact of how many permanent side effects have happened, how many bottles of the stuff do you think they'll be able to sell ever again ? I'm also sure, you haven't read any of the cases, people pressing charges against the company. If they settle out of court, do you think these facts ever come to life ?

I am very serious about my hair loss, and you have no idea how much it troubles me. The very fact of how much time, attention and efforts I've spent researching is alone the proof of how badly I am struggling with the loss. My current regimen is a result of the best alternative to the only other hazardous substance available. The fact that I am not willing to gamble or trade the potential of more hair for the potential of permanent impotence and other serious side effects does not mean that I don't care enough about the state of my hair. I care and I care way too much.

[StressedToTheBald]

I am curious to see if stressedtobebald will have any success on these natural treatments. Would be nice to see pictures.

I am curious too. If it works out, even to a certain degree, it would feel like a miracle for me. I plan to make a photo of my progress at the end of each month.. If it works out, I'll have a sequence of progress in a timeline to show.