Analysis of gc83uk's Donor - 2nd & 3rd HST Procedures

[Skywalker]

Cheers mate, I take it your a Spurs fan with a name like that, I'm a gooner...

All the best people are gc83uk

[garethbale]

All the best people are gc83uk

You're not a gooner as well are you!??

[Skywalker]

You're not a gooner as well are you!??

I'll be in the North Bank tomorrow - but I admit Bale is a great player - grudgingly

[garethbale]

I'll be in the North Bank tomorrow - but I admit Bale is a great player - grudgingly

Ah ok, in that case....Come on Blackburn!!!

[gc83uk]

I'll be in the North Bank tomorrow - but I admit Bale is a great player - grudgingly

Good man as long as your not a AKB! I'll no doubt be watching it on some dodgy online stream, I have to watch every minute of every game, i'm sad like that!

Don't get to the emirates much because I'm in the north west, but usually go to most of the away games up here, more atmosphere at away games anyway IMO, I'll go the replay if we draw against Blackburn tomoz, midweek away games up here are piss easy for tickets.

Tuesday night is the big game though, I heard earlier today that Bayern have only conceeded 7 goals all season, I'm one for positive thinking, but we're probably ****ed there.

[JJJJrS]

Before and After - Recipient

Before any procedures

2 days after 3rd procedure

gc83uk has scarring alopecia. The before picture shows gc's recipient before any procedures. The after picture shows gc's recipient 2 days after his 3rd procedure. In total, he's had approximately 3000 grafts transplanted - 700 each in his first two procedures and 1600 in his third procedure.

I've posted these pictures in the thread for easy reference. I'll update the thread to include the final recipient results in the months ahead. With these pictures, we'll have a rough idea of what the yield was like in his recipient and what the characteristics of the transplanted hairs are.

[534623]

Before any procedures

2 days after 3rd procedure

gc83uk has scarring alopecia.

As already mentioned, this is just the short version of gc's story...

For that, hairy man gc is an excellent candidate on one hand, a rather bad candidate on the other hand…

gc – the excellent candidate
He is an excellent candidate concerning former being SLICK BALD on top. That means, it’s, in fact, easy to count and to analyze every implanted HST graft, because there were not any pre-existing hairs – not even any tiny vellus hairs!
So everything what you can see and WILL see in future - and there is simply no room for trickery or BS whatever, are all 100% hairs of implanted HST grafts (more accurate implanted follicular stem cells) from gc’s donor area.

gc – the bad candidate
gc is NOT a normal AGA patient. According to his reports, he suddenly lost ALL hairs on top of his head when he was 8 years old or so. That means, the skin itself on top of his head didn’t contain any follicles/hairs (not even vellus hairs!) since around 22 years. It is well-known, that skin in general, which doesn’t contain follicles/hairs since a very long time, is not really the ideal environment for successful hair transplants – especially when there is SCARRING alopecia involved.
The latter is THE reason (besides gc’s former 2 small test procedures) , why they –in gc’s case- always used the stick & place method for implantation of the grafts. So in gc’s case, it’s rather like transplanting of grafts into strip scars (at least similar), and transplanting into scars, has always been a tricky thing concerning the success rate – aka “take rate”. So that’s the reason why he also is a rather “bad candidate” for recipient area studies. But so far, as mentioned, his 2 small test procedures were so far very convincing and promising.

The absolute convincing story is shown in this photo...


...namely, how HST works in an very old, slick bald and completely isolated evenvironment - far apart from any healthy (aka "supporting") pre-existing follicles/hairs.

[JJJJrS]

Original Pictures

Here are the original, unedited pictures gc83uk took of his donor, which were used in the analysis:

2nd Procedure:
Day 2
Month 9

3rd Procedure:
Day 0
Day 2
Day 20
Day 24

Note that the Month 9 picture from the 2nd procedure is exactly the same as the Day 0 picture from gc's 3rd procedure. In other words, gc had his 3rd procedure 9 months after his 2nd and the photo can be used as an after picture for the 2nd procedure and as a before picture for the 3rd procedure.

[JJJJrS]

The one thing that caught me a little by surprise from the analysis was the percentage of follicular units in the donor which regenerated with less hairs or were thinner.

We know that ~10-20% of hairs on the scalp are in the telogen stage at a given point in time and of course these will be lost if they are extracted. It's not a surprise than that approx. 20% of the follicular units did not regenerate. But, in addition to this, ~30% of the extracted follicular units regenerated with less hair or were visibly thinner.

Does anyone have an explanation for this? I don't think you can't attribute this all to hairs in the telogen phase. I also don't think you can say this is due to splitting, since approx. 50% of the extractions regenerated in the same configuration and robustness.

[534623]

Does anyone have an explanation for this?

Indeed, geil question - who has an explanation for all this?

Anyway, in such cases (former normal hairs have become thinner hairs or former 2-hair grafts have become single hairs etc), this has basically indeed nothing to do with follicles in the telogen phase (what's the main problem) - so the most logical explanations are …

1) former 2-hair grafts have become single hairs

Not unusual at all. This can happen if one follicle of the follicular unit is extracted entirely intact (the whole amount of HF stem cells are extracted of this follicle). This can happen if the needle is not well centered placed around the visible hair shafts at the skin’s surface in the moment of extraction...


…or it’s simply due to a “strange configuration” itself of the follicular unit in the skin – or due to a combination of both.

Another reason for this is that the 2nd or 3rd follicle simply didn’t have the capacity to regenerate completely or at all (due to pre-existing scarring or whatever). Maybe it just didn’t regenerate immediately, but after unknown period of time – simply as this happens after you were born with a very small head and a certain number of follicular units, but as an adult, with a far bigger head (hair-bearing areas become enlarged too!), follicular units start to divide in the expanding skin. This phenomenon is well-described in the medical literature - but not that “well-known” among so-called experts in this field.

Whatever, HST simply needs very precise instruments AND very precise extractions to avoid this problem - what’s not always so easy.


2) some former normal hairs in the donor have become thinner hairs after HST extractions

Also not unusual at all. For example, before having any HST extractions at all, I knew that I also have lots of “thinner” or simply “miniaturized” hairs everywhere in my donor area. This is simply due to either “partially AGA” also in the donor area, as well as so-called “senescent alopecia”. So if you extract such an affected graft, which is already “prone to” produce thinner hairs in future – the result will be thinner hairs immediately.

Thinner hairs due to bisection methods in general, concerning the DONOR AREA, this phenomenon is NOT known at all. That means, if you transect follicles during normal FUE procedures etc, or if you simple severe traumatize/damage healthy hair follicles in the donor area and these follicles regenerate on their own due to the involved follicular stem cells plus included wounding phenomens etc, these hair follicles, in the donor area, do normally NOT produce thinner hairs thereafter.

As a conclusion,
for consecutive HST procedures, and concerning graft calculations, you MUST also always calculate all these just described factors as well/in addition!
Concerning the completely scarless appearance in the donor area after having HST extractions, in my personal opinion, I rather prefer also single hairs or even some thinner hairs thereafter than scarring and/or hairless gaps everywhere in the donor area.

[didi]

JJJJ

That is the reason why we NEED 50 grafts test to be done,

as you pointed out half of extracted hairs either didnt regenerate or regenerated with less or thinner hairs...HMM

AND we still dont know what grows in recipient, right? Do all follicles grow or partial?

So it is fair to say that true/real regeneration is 50% but even that is not accurate untill we know what % of FUs grows on scalp..

If you look at GCs previous HSTs you will see most of hairs are singles, bit alarming even though he has no reason to have singles in mid scalp since his donor has plenty of doubles..

hst might be scarless but at he expense of very low number of hairs per graft compared to fue/fut, besides donor regeneration isnt as claimed

[didi]

splitting theory is still possible

partial regeneration+partial growth


I want to see 50 graft test where 3-hair follicular units to regrow as 3 in both places...

I guarantee its not going to happen,


Another thing I forgot to mention, when I asked hasci if they can use transplanted hair on top as new donor they said 'NO, bc these hairs are not the same, they are thinner', something along theselines....


these hairs are not of the same quality as original donor, even after 2 years....with FUE hir doent become thinner, its just normal hair....


HST needs to be investigated further...you guys just scrached the surface

[Arashi]

Didi is just getting to the bottom of it. Maybe he's looking for a 'hair in the soup' but why not ? It's a good thing to play the devil's advocate here.

Thanks to JJJJr's analysis we now know that donor regrowth isn't as good as thought before, since a lot of hairs grow back smaller/thinner, at least in Gaz's case. We don't know yet if it's the same for others or that this is specific to his condition. We also don't know if it happens in recipient, there is quite a bit speculation though that hairs do grow thinner in recipient since several people have reported thin recipient.

IM, I just really don't understand why you take criticism so personally. Just relax a bit man. You're not invested with Gho are you ?

[gc83uk]

Small update:

Of the 20odd extractions that originally shown no regrowth at all, I have now found 9 of them are showing either some regrowth or complete regrowth.

[534623]

Small update:

Of the 20odd extractions that originally shown no regrowth at all, I have now found 9 of them are showing either some regrowth or complete regrowth.

What do you mean?
Extraction sites after your 2nd HST?

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/12695946/img/Picture-Box/gc83uk-Day-13.jpg

Extraction sites after your 3rd HST?

http://www.fileden.com/files/2012/12/16/3377048/Day%2024.jpg

Please post a "now" photo...