Donor Densities & Safe Zone

[didi]

email from hasci

[534623]

hasci

"At this moment, we do average about 1200-1400 grafts per treatment and occasionally, we can increase it to 1600, 1800 and even 2000 grafts. There are many factors influence the smoothness/speed of the harvesting of the grafts, the hair follicle unit itself and the type of skin – hard or soft (which we can’t influence)."

By the way ...
I know a guy in a German hair loss forum (maybe I can find the link to this thread again), who reported the following:

He had a normal FUE procedure with Dr. Keser (I think he is one of the best FUE docs in Turkey) with 2000 FUE grafts:

Extractions day 1: 500 grafts
Extractions day 2: 750 grafts
Extractions day 3: 550 grafts
Extractions day 4: 200 grafts
TOTAL: 2000 normal FUE-Grafts

It took Dr. Keser almost a whole working week, just to get the 2000 FUE grafts from this patient! This is no joke!

Okay - here we have a HST patient (with Dr. Broekhuijse, Amsterdam) - "Mr. Molenaar":

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZowWbTsiws

Anyway - 2000 grafts just in 1 day! - and not within almost 1 working week!

So, what?

[didi]

FUE pioneer extracts only 500-600 a day, he does multiple days, so you could en up with 2500-3000 in 5 days, no assistants used

it would be nice if hasci starts offering 2 day procedure, 2 x 1400 ,they really should, if not 1st 'checkup treatment', 2nd and so on definately


as somebody said GC could have been fixed after 3 procedures

[534623]

FUE pioneer extracts only 500-600 a day, he does multiple days, so you could en up with 2500-3000 in 5 days, no assistants used ...

5 days just with the FUE pioneer in 1 room??
I’m sure you’ll need a psychiatrist thereafter …

Furthermore, besides saline solution injections into your donor area (in case the doc has troubles to get out the grafts), in addition, every few hours …

…anesthetics into your donor and recipient area - for 5 days!
Cool….you, your body and especially your bodies' healing capabilities, will love it!

it would be nice if hasci starts offering 2 day procedure, 2 x 1400 ,they really should ...

Sure, they could definitely do this, but the problem is (besides some other problems they told you via email), that especially psychiatric individuals would complain thereafter on hair loss forums, that they either

1) could only see very little donor regeneration;
2) in some cases maybe NO REGENERATION at all;

And one of these mentioned individuals would be definitely - YOU.

And YOU – why don’t YOU explain me THE reasons for “very little regeneration” up to “no regeneration” at all?
So what exactly could be THE reasons for that?

Why don’t you give ME an answer?
Am I expecting an intelligent answer? Actually, no.

[didi]

5 days just with the FUE pioneer in 1 room??
I’m sure you’ll need a psychiatrist thereafter …


from what i heard yes, you and him only,you can opt to watch movies such as extended version of his famous blockbaster 'death of follicle',


does it mean hst will never increase sessions as body cant handle/heal it properly


hope dr gho, dr nigam anddrwoods get together and instead of shitting and wanking in each others mouth they start working on true HM

[534623]

from what i heard yes, you and him only,you can opt to watch movies such as extended version of his famous blockbaster 'death of follicle' ...

Exactly - or his other famous blockbuster "Why Dr. Gho's technique can't work!" ...

hope dr gho, dr nigam anddrwoods get together and instead of shitting and wanking in each others mouth they start working on true HM

Seems you're not aware about the research HISTORY and research INTEREST in this field:

"The art of surgical hair restoration has been practiced in the United States for about four decades, but it could be said that many of the innovations in the field have largely taken place only during the last ten years."
Source: "Patient Guide to Surgical and Medical Hair Restoration"
2002 Truett Bridges, MD, Paul Rose, MD, and John Cole, MD

Read more ...
... and cite the parts you like most.

[Arashi]

It's pretty clear you're an idiot, Didi

[JJJJrS]

Sure, they could definitely do this, but the problem is (besides some other problems they told you via email), that especially psychiatric individuals would complain thereafter on hair loss forums, that they either

1) could only see very little donor regeneration;
2) in some cases maybe NO REGENERATION at all;

I think that's the main reason HASCI takes such a conservative approach. For the HST/HSI procedures, everything is built around donor regeneration and no visible scarring. Dr. Gho even guarantees on paper that 80+% of the extracted grafts will regenerate.

It's obvious that HASCI does not want to compromise those guarantees so they try to absolutely minimize the chances of something like that from occurring by taking a safe approach and limiting the number of grafts per procedure. Not because they can't do larger procedures but because they don't want to take the risk.

We now know that GC could have had 1600+ grafts extracted during his first few procedures but only received 700 grafts. Likewise, there's no doubt in my mind that HASCI could have extracted 2000+ grafts from Iron_Man's donor but he only ended up with 1400.

Assuming the worst case, where HASCI extracts too much and a patient ends up with minimal donor regeneration and no visible scarring, if a case like that showed up online it would have very negative consequences. It would damage a lot of people's belief in the procedure and hurt business. It would provide ammunition for his competitor's, who have already initiated court proceedings in the past. It would be the last thing Dr. Gho would need to deal with.

[534623]

I think that's the main reason HASCI takes such a conservative approach. For the HST/HSI procedures, everything is built around donor regeneration and no visible scarring. Dr. Gho even guarantees on paper that 80+% of the extracted grafts will regenerate.

Not so fast ...

I my humble opinion, gc & Gho made a mistake in the past; having another procedure in the donor area, just 6 month (!!) apart - is simply too early.

9 month ago, I had really headaches as I heard "just 6 month apart" (between 1st and 2nd HST) or something - in my opinion, that's simply TOO EARLY!

Dr. Gho said in the Kobren/Gho interview "FUE-wounds need a healing area" (19:20) ...

Really?
How about giving this area enough time to regenerate completely (besides those grafts who simply can't regenerate due to the hairs in telogen stage)?

It can take up to 1 year (maybe even more), until a given "information network" (nerves) regenerates completely. This "information network" works coordinated, and if this network is (still) interrupted (like a phone or EDP network), even just partially interrupted, the regenerating follicles will not get "the proper information". Maybe not that important for skin regeneration in general, or maybe not even that important to start follicle regeneration - but definitely for hair follicle re-generation and re-formation in general; namely, the information about "What should I be?" - "A thicker or a thinner hair?" - "Where I am (at all)?"
In simple words, 9 month ago, gc & Gho interrupted a still interrupted network again - and this can be "risky" ..

Anyway, if we can see around the same regeneration rate as after having his 2nd procedure - I would be really surprised ...

[gc83uk]

Not so fast ...

I my humble opinion, gc & Gho made a mistake in the past; having another procedure in the donor area, just 6 month (!!) apart - is simply too early.

You are probably right, however I felt so desperate at the time to move the process along, so that in a way I didn't care if I compromised maybe 30% of the regrowth of the original 700 harvested from the 1st procedure. I thought it was a smallish risk.

However I wouldn't dream of getting 1600 done 6 months from now, plus I know much more about the procedure than what I did to start with!

[clarence]

I don't see what the reason is for always stressing the importance of the safe zone, if we're doing a procedure that's scarless.

Grafts taken from outside of the safe zone will eventually begin thinning, if
they're vulnerable to it. But grafts which are taken solely from the safe zone will always remain in place, even when the original hairs surrounding them start to thin out, and that will look unnatural on some people (e. g. those with only receding hairlines), unless they get another procedure done (to "replace more zombies"). So it makes sense for me to harvest some grafts from outside of the safe zone; especially if you are unwilling to have a second procedure.

[Gandolf]

I don't see what the reason is for always stressing the importance of the safe zone, if we're doing a procedure that's scarless.

Grafts taken from outside of the safe zone will eventually begin thinning, if
they're vulnerable to it. But grafts which are taken solely from the safe zone will always remain in place, even when the original hairs surrounding them start to thin out, and that will look unnatural on some people (e. g. those with only receding hairlines), unless they get another procedure done (to "replace more zombies"). So it makes sense for me to harvest some grafts from outside of the safe zone; especially if you are unwilling to have a second procedure.

It doesn't really pose a huge problem, but it would be considered by some to be a waste of money. If you graft a hair that was destined to fall out then you basically paid money for a temporary result.

[aim4hair]

I don't see what the reason is for always stressing the importance of the safe zone, if we're doing a procedure that's scarless.
.

this is the main advantage of scarless procedure, since if you lost the hair surrending your transplanted hair and you decided not to opt for more HTs, you still have the option to shave your head.

[clarence]

It doesn't really pose a huge problem, but it would be considered by some to be a waste of money. If you graft a hair that was destined to fall out then you basically paid money for a temporary result.

But does it makes any sense to pay for 100% permanent results, if you don't have an advanced/diffuse hair loss pattern and you are reluctant to have a second and third procedure in the future to keep looking au naturel?

[534623]

I don't see what the reason is for always stressing the importance of the safe zone, if we're doing a procedure that's scarless.

Grafts taken from outside of the safe zone will eventually begin thinning, if
they're vulnerable to it. But grafts which are taken solely from the safe zone will always remain in place, even when the original hairs surrounding them start to thin out, and that will look unnatural on some people (e. g. those with only receding hairlines), unless they get another procedure done (to "replace more zombies").

Sure, but replacing these "zombies" costs a patient again a lot of money - besides the frustration again.

With the HST technique, sure, in theory you could harvest also a little bit outside the safety zone, and once the time is ripe for these "zombies" in your donor AND recipient area (transplanted hairs start to miniaturize etc), with HST, you can still replace these "zombies" again due to the donor regeneration in the safety zone - but usually you cannot do this with normal FUE anymore, because in these cases, the safety zone is mostly DEPLETED already!

Furthermore, harvesting outside the safety zone/permanent zone makes no sense with the HST technique anyhow, because they don't overharvest the donor area; just the usual 1500-2000 grafts per session, which is simply an important part for donor regeneration; because if you do far more than these numbers, its simply too risky for the healing characteristic. So extractions outside the permanent zone, makes no sense anyhow and is therefore not necessary.
Anyway...

top class Drs consistently get 5-6000 or more grafts by fue

What they consistently do, is just throwing out big numbers which seem "amazing" - but just for idiots.
And there is another thing what they do:
They recommend patients 6 month or more prior FUE as well as after FUE the usage of PROPECIA. But doing this, is a very very tricky thing ...

Provided that Propecia works for this patient, oh, and Propecia CAN work especially in rather young patients and especially in the DONOR AREA, what does it mean for such patients?
Right, the patient is now FORCED to use Propecia!
I know very well, that if I would use Propecia, my donor area, especially in the zones above my ears, would look much better and densier. But it wasn't my intention that they transplant (in this case the HSI) just a lot of "zombies" into my recipient area ...
So what they transplanted so far, in my case, IS (hopefully) permanent stuff - even in a worst-case scenario, at least a BIG PART thereof. With the usage of Propecia - I would have headaches ...

Anyway - "brand new stuff"...


Okay, now let us look at some cases ...
This patient from the Netherlands ...

...got recently 3000 FUE grafts from his donor area.
This patient below, with an excellent donor density...

... got just 1300 FUE extractions.

And now the real, I mean the REAL good question:
For both cases, how much more FUE grafts can you get from such candidates in future and which problems are already involved?

DO NOT QUOTE SUCH LONG POSTS!