Another Gho question.

[534623]

In comparison to the completely new implanted grafts in the photo, the hairs from your 2nd HST next to them, appear almost like BEARD HAIRS concerning the diameter/thickness of the hair shafts - just after 9 month!

Concerning the type of grafts, I can actually just see the same as in the new implantation area - namely most of the grafts are 2-hair grafts, maybe some are indeed singles, but there are definitely also a few 3-hair grafts. That's what I can see. And just because you can see "singles" - it's absolutely NOT clear and you simply CAN'T tell whether or not they are really singles, because the really really good question is, why do these "singles" appear much thicker just after 9 month than the hair-shafts of the completely new implanted hairs from the donor area??

Just in case you guys don't understand what I'm talking about...


*complete/full size photo*: http://www.fileden.com/files/2011/9/...2013%20065.JPG

[cocacola]

thats pretty good! IM what do you think is the density that gc has right now in his donor/unaffected hair, 1st/2nd procedure zone and 3rd procedure zone.

[Vox]

wow, that will be a first. I take it you've sent over photos or had a consultation?

How much are they charging for 3000 grafts?

Their pricing scheme allows a reasonable cost for big sessions, because after 1800 grafts they charge 2.5 euros per graft. So we have:

the first 1800 grafts: 9400 euros
the next 1200 grafts: 3000 euros
total: 12400 euros

If one goes for two separate sessions of 1500 grafts each, he will pay 2 x 8700 euros = 17400 euros; 5000 euros more. Ouch!

Performing big sessions like that is obviously interesting to high NW guys for the reason just stated.

This surely has to be over 2 days, unless your going to start at 6am and finish at 8pm

This is what I think also.

[534623]

Their pricing scheme allows a reasonable cost for big sessions, because after 1800 grafts they charge 2.5 euros per graft. So we have:

the first 1800 grafts: 9400 euros
the next 1200 grafts: 3000 euros
total: 12400 euros

If one goes for two separate sessions of 1500 grafts each, he will pay 2 x 8700 euros = 17400 euros; 5000 euros more. Ouch!

...it's rather one reason more why you won't see much (if at all) 3000 HST grafts procedures in future.

Concerning "within 2 days 3000 HST grafts" - that's actually not what they say; here is what they say:

*) A maximum of approximately 3000 grafts can be transplanted per day of treatment.

Per day of treatment or within 2 days - who cares when most guys (even "virgin" guys) will not get such large extraction numbers.

[Arashi]

Yes, that's right. Now they can make 10,000 holes in your donor area - divided in 2 sessions.

That's of course the thing. Of course there's a limit to the maximum drills and grafts. Hence the 3000 grafts sounds nice but merely is a marketing gimmic when it's totally unrealistic for 99% of the patients. 1000-1600 grafts will still be the max for most patients.

[534623]

That's of course the thing. Of course there's a limit to the maximum drills and grafts. Hence the 3000 grafts sounds nice but merely is a marketing gimmic when it's totally unrealistic for 99% of the patients. 1000-1600 grafts will still be the max for most patients.

That's right - I thought the same; it IS merely a marketing gimmic -imho. BUT it is also NOT a misleading claim, because they just say "A maximum of approximately 3000 grafts can be transplanted per day of treatment" - what's basically correct, because I have no doubts that it IS basically possible - unfortunatelly not for everyone, because "the number of grafts to be transplanted, which entirely depends on your wishes, the possibilities and the condition of the donor area" - so there is, in fact, nothing misleading; that means, it is basically possible to transplant UP TO 3000 grafts per treatment day, but the number per se depends on the condition of a patients' donor area.
In more simple words: Just because it's basically possible to transplant up to 3000 HST grafts per treatment day, it doesn't mean YOU can get or "can buy" this number.

[gc83uk]

because the really really good question is, why do these "singles" appear much thicker just after 9 month than the hair-shafts of the completely new implanted hairs from the donor area??

Yes why do they?

I concur with most of what you have said. And as you have also pointed out there are some 'singles' which appear to be singles at first glance and probably are singles (in the 3rd HST area photo a few hours after the day1 treatment.)

My first question is this, if they are not extracting singles as you say, (or at least deliberately not trying to extract singles), then why would I end up with so many singles in the recipient shortly afterwards?

I have also noted plenty of singles when the hair was long and short in the 1st and 2nd HST areas, that is simply not up for discussion. Half of all grafts I would say are 1 hair grafts, plenty of 2 hair grafts and indeed some multi hair grafts.

I personally believe they do extract some singles (which I know you think they don't). I would rather believe they do extract singles, otherwise I don't know how else I can explain it other than they are extracting a 2 fu and either implanting 2 single FU's or perhaps a part of the 2 fu extracted was damaged and only the single part was implanted.

Let's put it another way, if they are not extracting singles, then why do I have so many singles growing in the recipient area?

On the positive note, it is true these singles appear much thicker after say 9 months than the recently implanted hairs. I also think the new hairs after a few months appear thicker than the rest of my surrounding hair, something which was claimed to be the opposite by the naysayers not so long ago.

Despite what I've said above, I don't actually care too much, I would be happy if all the hairs were singles as long as I keep regenerating hair in the donor over and over. If the same 2 FU is extracted 3 times from my donor and it only gives me a single hair in my recipient each time, then, it's still a net gain of 3 hairs.

[534623]

My first question is this, if they are not extracting singles as you say, (or at least deliberately not trying to extract singles), then why would I end up with so many singles in the recipient shortly afterwards?

I have also noted plenty of singles when the hair was long and short in the 1st and 2nd HST areas, that is simply not up for discussion. Half of all grafts I would say are 1 hair grafts, plenty of 2 hair grafts and indeed some multi hair grafts.

Here is another snippet/close-up from this photo...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2011/9/28/3202143/14th%20Jan%202013%20065.JPG

The left side shows the freshly implanted grafts (your 3rd HST) and the right side shows the "result" after 9 month from your 2nd HST.

So what exactly can everybody see?
If you look and compare the distribution and configuration of the "grafts" on the right side, is the destribution/configuration of the grafts on the right side the same as on the left side (the freshly implanted hairs)?
I will tell you something:
If there would be almost twice as much grafts on the right side (in 9 month at both sides) - this would simply create a PERFECT natural looking!!

btw - During so many years of hair transplants in general, HOW MANY of such close-up photos with shaved transplanted hairs could we see - I mean besides the shitty standard before/after photos by HT clinics??

[534623]

btw - During so many years of hair transplants in general, HOW MANY of such close-up photos with shaved transplanted hairs could we see - I mean besides the shitty standard before/after photos by HT clinics??

...and there is an even bigger problem:

http://www.realself.com/question/scarring-alopecia-hair-transplant

When you scroll down this page, you can read 6 different HT doctor opinions concerning the hair transplant success rate for SCARRING ALOPECIA patients - like you.
Anyway, besides the well-known bold claims by hair transplant doctors (NONE of them will ever say and admit "I get bad results") - I have never ever seen any photos (not even shitty ones) of these "good results" of transplanted scarring alopecia patients - neither scientifically, nor anecdotally.
The only one I'm aware of, who did BOTH, is Dr. Gho.

[534623]

I have never ever seen any photos (not even shitty ones) of these "good results" of transplanted scarring alopecia patients - neither scientifically, nor anecdotally.
The only one I'm aware of, who did BOTH, is Dr. Gho.

With "both" - I meant the following:

Scientifically (published in a medical journal):

http://www.hasci.com/uploads/downloads/93002f6d-ede0-47bf-a7a9-a4ec394bcca7GhoNeumannJBUR3375.pdf

Anecdotally (presentations, folders etc):

http://www.ebca.info/userfiles/2EBCA%20EBCA%20Hair%20science%20Institute.25nov10.pdf

http://www.oscare.be/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/HSI-Oscare-folder.pdf

[topcat]

Hey Ironman has you result grown out yet? Maybe you can point me to the picture of the recipient area before and after. danke schoen

[JJJJrS]

Yes why do they?

I concur with most of what you have said. And as you have also pointed out there are some 'singles' which appear to be singles at first glance and probably are singles (in the 3rd HST area photo a few hours after the day1 treatment.)

My first question is this, if they are not extracting singles as you say, (or at least deliberately not trying to extract singles), then why would I end up with so many singles in the recipient shortly afterwards?

I have also noted plenty of singles when the hair was long and short in the 1st and 2nd HST areas, that is simply not up for discussion. Half of all grafts I would say are 1 hair grafts, plenty of 2 hair grafts and indeed some multi hair grafts.

I personally believe they do extract some singles (which I know you think they don't). I would rather believe they do extract singles, otherwise I don't know how else I can explain it other than they are extracting a 2 fu and either implanting 2 single FU's or perhaps a part of the 2 fu extracted was damaged and only the single part was implanted.

Let's put it another way, if they are not extracting singles, then why do I have so many singles growing in the recipient area?

On the positive note, it is true these singles appear much thicker after say 9 months than the recently implanted hairs. I also think the new hairs after a few months appear thicker than the rest of my surrounding hair, something which was claimed to be the opposite by the naysayers not so long ago.

Despite what I've said above, I don't actually care too much, I would be happy if all the hairs were singles as long as I keep regenerating hair in the donor over and over. If the same 2 FU is extracted 3 times from my donor and it only gives me a single hair in my recipient each time, then, it's still a net gain of 3 hairs.

IM is right when he says that they extract multi-hair follicular units almost exclusively. In fact, if you look at the before photo from your 3rd procedure that I analysed, where the blue circles indicate extracted follicular units, the overwhelming majority were multi-hair FUs.

As for why you have so many singles in your recipient, I can't really say. That's exactly why I would like to see a 50 graft test procedure analysed so that we can have a better idea of things on the recipient side.

You have so many people asking questions on the procedure. If you really want concrete answers, the easiest way to get to get those is by supporting the 50-graft test procedure initiative.

[gc83uk]

IM is right when he says that they extract multi-hair follicular units almost exclusively. In fact, if you look at the before photo from your 3rd procedure that I analysed, where the blue circles indicate extracted follicular units, the overwhelming majority were multi-hair FUs.

As for why you have so many singles in your recipient, I can't really say. That's exactly why I would like to see a 50 graft test procedure analysed so that we can have a better idea of things on the recipient side.

You have so many people asking questions on the procedure. If you really want concrete answers, the easiest way to get to get those is by supporting the 50-graft test procedure initiative.

Yes to be honest, I know I.M is right, it's just wishful thinking on my part. I've gone full circle now with my thinking. So if we assume they don't extract singles which can be verified with the before and after pics as you and I.M say, then in my eyes it's still a mystery why in the 3rd HST zone, just a few hours after extraction I can clearly see quite a few singles, as indeed yourself and I.M can also verify and of course Didi.

The point raised on scarred tissue/scarring alopecia by I.M is a valid point if there was e.g a 2hair graft implanted to begin with and only part of it survived and I ended up with lots of singles after a few months time, that is plausible. But like I said, it seems there are plenty of singles implanted to start with.

Perhaps because of my scarring alopecia they run into problems during extraction and some of the 2 hair fu's need 'cleaning off' into singles.

Anyway there is no point me guessing, but I'm more than behind the 50 graft test. The thing is people have been banging on about the 50 graft test for about 3 years and NOTHING has been done.

I think one of you guys who live in USA or at least in the same time zone as Spencers radio show should suggest it and take it from there. I can't think of any other way. JJJJrS is the man for the job IMO

[JJJJrS]

Yes to be honest, I know I.M is right, it's just wishful thinking on my part. I've gone full circle now with my thinking. So if we assume they don't extract singles which can be verified with the before and after pics as you and I.M say, then in my eyes it's still a mystery why in the 3rd HST zone, just a few hours after extraction I can clearly see quite a few singles, as indeed yourself and I.M can also verify and of course Didi.

The point raised on scarred tissue/scarring alopecia by I.M is a valid point if there was e.g a 2hair graft implanted to begin with and only part of it survived and I ended up with lots of singles after a few months time, that is plausible. But like I said, it seems there are plenty of singles implanted to start with.

Perhaps because of my scarring alopecia they run into problems during extraction and some of the 2 hair fu's need 'cleaning off' into singles.

It's tough to say how much of an influence your scarring alopecia may have. I'm sure it's not helping things but it's not like we have many other cases to compare it to either.

At least with the 50 graft test you can take your average patient and see how many 1-hair, 2-hair, and 3-hair follicular units are extracted and compare it directly to what shows up in the recipient. At a basic level, you'll be able to see exactly how well HST can work.

Anyway there is no point me guessing, but I'm more than behind the 50 graft test. The thing is people have been banging on about the 50 graft test for about 3 years and NOTHING has been done.

I know what you mean but in my opinion, now is really the perfect time to get this done. Spencer Kobren and Dr. Gho both seemed open to a visit over the summer. If you're going to visit, than you might as well document a procedure. All Spencer and his crew would have to do is take photos/videos of the procedure and keep in touch with the patient before and after. Dr. Gho could probably set up the 50 graft test himself from a technical standpoint. At this point, something like that is long overdue and there really isn't an excuse to continue neglecting it, especially when it's relatively simple to implement.

I think one of you guys who live in USA or at least in the same time zone as Spencers radio show should suggest it and take it from there. I can't think of any other way. JJJJrS is the man for the job IMO

I think I've already frustrated him enough by bringing up HST so many times. I think it would be a lot more effective if other people called in or asked. I'm sure he would be a lot more willing to do it if more people asked, beyond just the regulars on here. But of course, I'll try to do my best to keep it going.

BTW, he does have a UK show and hotline too

[didi]

even if Spencer didnt see thread about 50 grafts test he knows its the only way to find out what is HST all about.
He is inteligent man but it is in his best interest too keep this discussion going on for as long as possible instead of proving Dr Ghos HST dont work as claimed, status quo draws traffic to his site.
BTW we already proved that 80% regeneration isnt correct as only 50% follicles fully regenerates, 30% grows with less hairs or thinner hairs and 20% dont grow at all
We already know 2.5 hairs per graft is hyped up
3000 grafts in a day is possible if you are lucky enough to be within 1% of population



If Spencer really wants to get to the bottom of this he will pay 5 000 USD, take 3 guys to do tests in one day (loose change for him anyway) and get this enigma solved once for all,

what would happen to Gho section if it turns out that Gho just splits grafts or he gets some regeneration?
Dr Cole also claim up to 60% regeneration..

IMO Gho just perfected splitting, which isnt bad at all but to call it hair multiplication is misleading

as Spencer said:read between the lines