Another Gho question.

[534623]

Hey Ironman has you result grown out yet? Maybe you can point me to the picture of the recipient area before and after. danke schoen

bitteschoen...


3-month after - hair (dry) combed forward

3-month after - hair (wet) combed backwards ("stylish")

As you can see very very clearly, my new dense mane is already almost reality...

[534623]

...looking at recipient is absurd

No - changing the topic from your "Gho is splitting follicular units" claim to "looking at recipient" is plain absurd.

[didi]

Lets imagine, for the sake of example that all hairs in donor regenerate 100% even after multiple extraction, 2 grows back as 2, 3 as 3..

still it doesnt mean HST works as claimed by HASCI simply bc you dont know what grows on top,
What if these transplanted 2 and 3 hair grafts grow only as 1s and 2s?(according to my analysis thats exactly whats is growing in GCs recipient)


Thats why we are in process of collecting money to fund 50 graft HST test procedure to find out exactly what grows in both areas,


Analyzing only donor regenertion without looking at recipient is absurd

[534623]

@didi - could you please make a fat red dot or questionmark or a little hairy vagina or something (or simply post the number) next to any clear visible "pure splitting of follicular units" extraction sites?
Oh, and don't forget to explain what "splitting of follicluar units" is at all.

Thanks in advance.

...because SUCH a really pervers and stupid claim...

IMO Gho just perfected splitting, which isnt bad at all but to call it hair multiplication is misleading ...

...I consider something like this rather as FRAUD than just "misleading".

[534623]

Its possible that HST isnt pure splitting like some docs suspected and that real regeneration occurs, but its impossible to determine all aspects of HST based on evidence presented.

I still wonder what good is JJ's analysis...

Day 0

Day 2

Day 24

'Day 0' is a 'before picture' gc83uk took a day before his 3rd HST procedure. It is the exact same picture as the photo from the 2nd procedure labelled as 'Month 9'. 'Day 2' shows which follicular units HASCI extracted. Finally, "Day 24" shows the same donor area 24 days after the 3rd procedure.

The blue, numbered circles are extraction points from the 3rd procedure. The green, numbered dots are extraction points from the 2nd procedure (see analysis above). A blue circle with a green dot inside indicates that the follicular unit has been extracted during both gc's 2nd and 3rd procedure. Finally, the red lines/dots are a mapping of the surrounding hairs.

For more clarity, click and zoom in on an area of interest.

This time, gc's 3rd HST procedure 2 month ago, we had a crystal clear BEFORE photo (Day-0), namely, gc's donor area (at least almost the half donor area) one day BEFORE having for a third time HST extractions in the same area - a situation simply "as is" shortly BEFORE having HST extractions.

So when you click and compare the encircled, labeled/numbered and analysed Day-0 versus Day-2 photos - is here somebody who can crystal clear SEE any "pure splitting of follicular units"??

Let me guess - someone can ...

@didi - could you please make a fat red dot or questionmark or a little hairy vagina or something (or simply post the number) next to any clear visible "pure splitting of follicular units" extraction sites?
Oh, and don't forget to explain what "splitting of follicluar units" is at all.

Thanks in advance.

[JJJJrS]

Thats a good thing but it doesnt tell us whole story as we dont know much about recipient, it is possible that HST gets 50% fully regenerated units, 30% partial regrowth/thinner and 20 % dont grow back(as JJJJrs analisys).. in recipient he gets lower yields due to mostly single hairs..

Its possible that HST isnt pure splitting like some docs suspected and that real regeneration occurs, but its impossible to determine all aspects of HST based on evidence presented.

When GCs 3rd HST grows out we can assess his recipeint,

Im in favor of test

perhaps Winston can help us and get in touch with Spencer telling him how much we really want this 50 GARFT TEST to happen..

Winston you are the man

I doubt that the procedure is based entirely on splitting grafts or all of gc's extracted grafts would have regrown with less hairs. That wasn't the case and we could see that clearly with some of the 4-hair, 3-hair grafts.

To get a complete picture of the procedure though, you can't just focus on the donor and you have to include the recipient. I really don't know how well HST works in that regard. A 50-graft procedure should answer those questions if it's documented properly.

[didi]

Holy crap, you flip flop more than John Kerry. First you wanted more evidence, than a community funded 50 graft test on ONE individual, NOW you want Spencer to piss away 5 grand and THREE individuals????


One would be ok but since Spence is making easy bucks from membership n sponsors I dont see reason why pissing away 5 grand is big ask, its for benefits of all of us...frankly I think it wont happen, its in his best interest to keep status quo...


You still haven't addressed the issue that I pointed out; why did gc83uk's donor hair get harvested twice and both times fully regenerating with multiple hairs in the graft? Thats clearly not splitting.

Thats a good thing but it doesnt tell us whole story as we dont know much about recipient, it is possible that HST gets 50% fully regenerated units, 30% partial regrowth/thinner and 20 % dont grow back(as JJJJrs analisys).. in recipient he gets lower yields due to mostly single hairs..

Its possible that HST isnt pure splitting like some docs suspected and that real regeneration occurs, but its impossible to determine all aspects of HST based on evidence presented.

When GCs 3rd HST grows out we can assess his recipeint,

Im in favor of test

perhaps Winston can help us and get in touch with Spencer telling him how much we really want this 50 GARFT TEST to happen..

Winston you are the man

[hellouser]

If Spencer really wants to get to the bottom of this he will pay 5 000 USD, take 3 guys to do tests in one day (loose change for him anyway) and get this enigma solved once for all

Holy crap, you flip flop more than John Kerry. First you wanted more evidence, than a community funded 50 graft test on ONE individual, NOW you want Spencer to piss away 5 grand and THREE individuals????

IMO Gho just perfected splitting, which isnt bad at all but to call it hair multiplication is misleading

You still haven't addressed the issue that I pointed out; why did gc83uk's donor hair get harvested twice and both times fully regenerating with multiple hairs in the graft? Thats clearly not splitting.

[Jasari]

That's right - I thought the same; it IS merely a marketing gimmic -imho. BUT it is also NOT a misleading claim, because they just say "A maximum of approximately 3000 grafts can be transplanted per day of treatment" - what's basically correct, because I have no doubts that it IS basically possible - unfortunatelly not for everyone, because "the number of grafts to be transplanted, which entirely depends on your wishes, the possibilities and the condition of the donor area" - so there is, in fact, nothing misleading; that means, it is basically possible to transplant UP TO 3000 grafts per treatment day, but the number per se depends on the condition of a patients' donor area.
In more simple words: Just because it's basically possible to transplant up to 3000 HST grafts per treatment day, it doesn't mean YOU can get or "can buy" this number.

Is there a reason why they don't allow for consecutive treatment days? I.E: 1500 grafts each day?

[didi]

even if Spencer didnt see thread about 50 grafts test he knows its the only way to find out what is HST all about.
He is inteligent man but it is in his best interest too keep this discussion going on for as long as possible instead of proving Dr Ghos HST dont work as claimed, status quo draws traffic to his site.
BTW we already proved that 80% regeneration isnt correct as only 50% follicles fully regenerates, 30% grows with less hairs or thinner hairs and 20% dont grow at all
We already know 2.5 hairs per graft is hyped up
3000 grafts in a day is possible if you are lucky enough to be within 1% of population



If Spencer really wants to get to the bottom of this he will pay 5 000 USD, take 3 guys to do tests in one day (loose change for him anyway) and get this enigma solved once for all,

what would happen to Gho section if it turns out that Gho just splits grafts or he gets some regeneration?
Dr Cole also claim up to 60% regeneration..

IMO Gho just perfected splitting, which isnt bad at all but to call it hair multiplication is misleading

as Spencer said:read between the lines

[JJJJrS]

Yes to be honest, I know I.M is right, it's just wishful thinking on my part. I've gone full circle now with my thinking. So if we assume they don't extract singles which can be verified with the before and after pics as you and I.M say, then in my eyes it's still a mystery why in the 3rd HST zone, just a few hours after extraction I can clearly see quite a few singles, as indeed yourself and I.M can also verify and of course Didi.

The point raised on scarred tissue/scarring alopecia by I.M is a valid point if there was e.g a 2hair graft implanted to begin with and only part of it survived and I ended up with lots of singles after a few months time, that is plausible. But like I said, it seems there are plenty of singles implanted to start with.

Perhaps because of my scarring alopecia they run into problems during extraction and some of the 2 hair fu's need 'cleaning off' into singles.

It's tough to say how much of an influence your scarring alopecia may have. I'm sure it's not helping things but it's not like we have many other cases to compare it to either.

At least with the 50 graft test you can take your average patient and see how many 1-hair, 2-hair, and 3-hair follicular units are extracted and compare it directly to what shows up in the recipient. At a basic level, you'll be able to see exactly how well HST can work.

Anyway there is no point me guessing, but I'm more than behind the 50 graft test. The thing is people have been banging on about the 50 graft test for about 3 years and NOTHING has been done.

I know what you mean but in my opinion, now is really the perfect time to get this done. Spencer Kobren and Dr. Gho both seemed open to a visit over the summer. If you're going to visit, than you might as well document a procedure. All Spencer and his crew would have to do is take photos/videos of the procedure and keep in touch with the patient before and after. Dr. Gho could probably set up the 50 graft test himself from a technical standpoint. At this point, something like that is long overdue and there really isn't an excuse to continue neglecting it, especially when it's relatively simple to implement.

I think one of you guys who live in USA or at least in the same time zone as Spencers radio show should suggest it and take it from there. I can't think of any other way. JJJJrS is the man for the job IMO

I think I've already frustrated him enough by bringing up HST so many times. I think it would be a lot more effective if other people called in or asked. I'm sure he would be a lot more willing to do it if more people asked, beyond just the regulars on here. But of course, I'll try to do my best to keep it going.

BTW, he does have a UK show and hotline too

[gc83uk]

IM is right when he says that they extract multi-hair follicular units almost exclusively. In fact, if you look at the before photo from your 3rd procedure that I analysed, where the blue circles indicate extracted follicular units, the overwhelming majority were multi-hair FUs.

As for why you have so many singles in your recipient, I can't really say. That's exactly why I would like to see a 50 graft test procedure analysed so that we can have a better idea of things on the recipient side.

You have so many people asking questions on the procedure. If you really want concrete answers, the easiest way to get to get those is by supporting the 50-graft test procedure initiative.

Yes to be honest, I know I.M is right, it's just wishful thinking on my part. I've gone full circle now with my thinking. So if we assume they don't extract singles which can be verified with the before and after pics as you and I.M say, then in my eyes it's still a mystery why in the 3rd HST zone, just a few hours after extraction I can clearly see quite a few singles, as indeed yourself and I.M can also verify and of course Didi.

The point raised on scarred tissue/scarring alopecia by I.M is a valid point if there was e.g a 2hair graft implanted to begin with and only part of it survived and I ended up with lots of singles after a few months time, that is plausible. But like I said, it seems there are plenty of singles implanted to start with.

Perhaps because of my scarring alopecia they run into problems during extraction and some of the 2 hair fu's need 'cleaning off' into singles.

Anyway there is no point me guessing, but I'm more than behind the 50 graft test. The thing is people have been banging on about the 50 graft test for about 3 years and NOTHING has been done.

I think one of you guys who live in USA or at least in the same time zone as Spencers radio show should suggest it and take it from there. I can't think of any other way. JJJJrS is the man for the job IMO

[JJJJrS]

Yes why do they?

I concur with most of what you have said. And as you have also pointed out there are some 'singles' which appear to be singles at first glance and probably are singles (in the 3rd HST area photo a few hours after the day1 treatment.)

My first question is this, if they are not extracting singles as you say, (or at least deliberately not trying to extract singles), then why would I end up with so many singles in the recipient shortly afterwards?

I have also noted plenty of singles when the hair was long and short in the 1st and 2nd HST areas, that is simply not up for discussion. Half of all grafts I would say are 1 hair grafts, plenty of 2 hair grafts and indeed some multi hair grafts.

I personally believe they do extract some singles (which I know you think they don't). I would rather believe they do extract singles, otherwise I don't know how else I can explain it other than they are extracting a 2 fu and either implanting 2 single FU's or perhaps a part of the 2 fu extracted was damaged and only the single part was implanted.

Let's put it another way, if they are not extracting singles, then why do I have so many singles growing in the recipient area?

On the positive note, it is true these singles appear much thicker after say 9 months than the recently implanted hairs. I also think the new hairs after a few months appear thicker than the rest of my surrounding hair, something which was claimed to be the opposite by the naysayers not so long ago.

Despite what I've said above, I don't actually care too much, I would be happy if all the hairs were singles as long as I keep regenerating hair in the donor over and over. If the same 2 FU is extracted 3 times from my donor and it only gives me a single hair in my recipient each time, then, it's still a net gain of 3 hairs.

IM is right when he says that they extract multi-hair follicular units almost exclusively. In fact, if you look at the before photo from your 3rd procedure that I analysed, where the blue circles indicate extracted follicular units, the overwhelming majority were multi-hair FUs.

As for why you have so many singles in your recipient, I can't really say. That's exactly why I would like to see a 50 graft test procedure analysed so that we can have a better idea of things on the recipient side.

You have so many people asking questions on the procedure. If you really want concrete answers, the easiest way to get to get those is by supporting the 50-graft test procedure initiative.

[topcat]

Hey Ironman has you result grown out yet? Maybe you can point me to the picture of the recipient area before and after. danke schoen

[534623]

I have never ever seen any photos (not even shitty ones) of these "good results" of transplanted scarring alopecia patients - neither scientifically, nor anecdotally.
The only one I'm aware of, who did BOTH, is Dr. Gho.

With "both" - I meant the following:

Scientifically (published in a medical journal):

http://www.hasci.com/uploads/downloads/93002f6d-ede0-47bf-a7a9-a4ec394bcca7GhoNeumannJBUR3375.pdf

Anecdotally (presentations, folders etc):

http://www.ebca.info/userfiles/2EBCA%20EBCA%20Hair%20science%20Institute.25nov10.pdf

http://www.oscare.be/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/HSI-Oscare-folder.pdf