The 50 Graft Test Procedure

[Arashi]

Actually, we don't know whether or not all the photos so far are just JamesBald's OWN photos or those of Kristel's. Do we?

True. I'll ask Kristel and let's just HOPE they have more and better photo's for us ...

[JJJJrS]

No the problem is that most guys can't think and read ...

As just mentioned, I guess they put them into the section-1 BECAUSE they now already that such a graft will produce a SINGLE-HAIR GRAFT!

THEY know this in advance, what just indicates, that my "theory" is right - and that follicles in TELOGEN are definitely NOT the ideal follicles for transplantation.
Of course the same rule for indeed transected follicles.

So where is the difference between a transected follicle and a follicle in telogen?

Sorry guys, I can't post over and over again Dr. Coles explanations/link.

This is exactly the problem though. This test is supposed to be conclusive and we're already debating whether the hairs are transections or in telogen.

Even if we assume all these hairs are in telogen, which I doubt, this will still skew the regeneration rate. It's no longer completely accurate.

Of course, if you have a good before picture like I stressed so many times before, all of these wouldn't matter. We could get an accurate regeneration rate, like we did in gc's case. This can no longer happen.

[534623]

True. I'll ask Kristel and let's just HOPE they have more and better photo's for us ...

I HIGHLY doubt that - as mentioned since this thread exists.

[JJJJrS]

True. I'll ask Kristel and let's just HOPE they have more and better photo's for us ...

Let's hope so. Didn't you say that HASCI was planning to get professional photographers and publish the results on their web site?

If that's the case, I really hope they took some better photos.

[534623]

Even if we assume all these hairs are in telogen, which I doubt, this will still skew the regeneration rate. It's no longer completely accurate.

Concerning this issue - hair follicle biology, his shapes and nature isn't simply like a car or house. That means, you can only extract something simply "as is".

[gc83uk]

This is exactly the problem though. This test is supposed to be conclusive and we're already debating whether the hairs are transections or in telogen.

Even if we assume all these hairs are in telogen, which I doubt, this will still skew the regeneration rate. It's no longer completely accurate.

Of course, if you have a good before picture like I stressed so many times before, all of these wouldn't matter. We could get an accurate regeneration rate, like we did in gc's case. This can no longer happen.

This is kind of my point. Look at that petri dish JJ, how many of those grafts in the single compartment have the appearance of transections/telogen as a % of the overall grafts in that compartment?

I know I.M is saying they are telogen, but surely not that many? If you extract 200 grafts, you should expect to extract more than 10%, so 20 grafts, perhaps 40 grafts maximum.

What are the physical differences between a Telogen and a transection?

[Arashi]

I really wonder what good are all the interviews with Kobren/Gho:

A follicle in TELOGEN is very very SMALL contrary to ANAGEN follicles - and I'm talking about the FOLLICLE, and not the hair which you can still see in the petri dish/graft.

So because it is very very small - mostly the COMPLETE telogen follicle is extracted and therefore can't leave any portion of it behind in the donor area for regeneration.

Concerning "unclear": Unclear means simply "unclear", because there're no scientific studies out there (to the best of my knowledge) which can show any proof what, in fact, happens with telogen FOLLICLES (successful or not) if transplanted. Especially with the HST technique - I highly doubt that an transplanted TELOGEN-FOLLICLE has still the power to regenerate in the recipient area. It's practically the same problem as with a baby which is born much to early than after 9 month "gestation period". But again, I'm not aware about any conclusive scientific data concerning telogen-follicle transplantation.

What is this article all about??
Let me guess: Dr. Cole wrote this article just for fun ...

If I understand what you're saying and they extract a 2 hair follicle, one anagen, one telogen, since telogen is extremely small, nothing is left in donor for regeneration, so only 1 hair will grow back in donor. But in recipient, you're suggesting that telogen won't survive either. So effectively this 2 hair follicle that got extracted probably grows back as 1 hair in donor and 1 hair in recipient. Do I understand this correctly ?

[gc83uk]

If I understand what you're saying and they extract a 2 hair follicle, one anagen, one telogen, since telogen is extremely small, nothing is left in donor for regeneration, so only 1 hair will grow back in donor. But in recipient, you're suggesting that telogen won't survive either. So effectively this 2 hair follicle that got extracted probably grows back as 1 hair in donor and 1 hair in recipient. Do I understand this correctly ?

yes that's what he said.

[Arashi]

yes that's what he said.

But then, why would we count that as a '1 hair graft' ? Effectively 2 hairs got extracted.

[534623]

I know I.M is saying they are telogen, but surely not that many? If you extract 200 grafts, you should expect to extract more than 10%, so 20 grafts, perhaps 40 grafts maximum.

What are the physical differences between a Telogen and a transection?

Acually, even this discussion is completely IRRELEVANT!

Simply count ALL hairs (and not grafts, follicles and crap whatever) in the petri dish:

- almost the same amount of HAIRS should be back in all extraction holes;
- almost the same amount of HAIRS should grow in the recipient area(s).

WHAT THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM?

The only problem so far are just the PHOTOS itself (quality) - but actually not the petri-dish photo....

So simply try to COUNT all the HAIRS in the petri dish you can SEE!

[Arashi]

Acually, even this discussion is completely IRRELEVANT!

Simply count ALL hairs (and not grafts, follicles and crap whatever) in the petri dish:

- almost the same amount of HAIRS should be back in all extraction holes;
- almost the same amount of HAIRS should grow in the recipient area(s).

WHAT THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM?

The only problem so far are just the PHOTOS itself (quality) - but actually not the petri-dish photo....

This is actually a good point. We're not interested in grafts. We're interested in the TRUE regeneration rate, which is made up by *hairs* not graft. Problem is though that it might be difficult to count all hairs in the petridish ..

[gc83uk]

But then, why would we count that as a '1 hair graft' ? Effectively 2 hairs got extracted.

In laymans I think it goes something like this...They extracted it thinking this will hopefully be a 2 hair graft and then they would have gone, oh well, lets now call this a 1 hair graft. Because they had no choice other than to not use it.

[Arashi]

In laymans I think it goes something like this...They extracted it thinking this will hopefully be a 2 hair graft and then they would have gone, oh well, lets now call this a 1 hair graft. Because they had no choice other than to not use it.

IM made a good point. Let's shift the discussion to hairs, not grafts, since THAT is what we're interested in, the TRUE regeneration rate. But again, getting a good count might be difficult, petridish photo is also not sharp enough ..

[gc83uk]

This is actually a good point. We're not interested in grafts. We're interested in the TRUE regeneration rate, which is made up by *hairs* not graft. Problem is though that it might be difficult to count all hairs in the petridish ..

OK so if we're counting all hairs, then how many singles have we ACTUALLY got? Because a lot of those single's were originally doubles that were once upon a time were in anagen and would have returned back to anagen had they not been extracted.

[JJJJrS]

Acually, even this discussion is completely IRRELEVANT!

Simply count ALL hairs (and not grafts, follicles and crap whatever) in the petri dish:

- almost the same amount of HAIRS should be back in all extraction holes;
- almost the same amount of HAIRS should grow in the recipient area(s).

WHAT THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM?

The only problem so far are just the PHOTOS itself (quality) - but actually not the petri-dish photo....

So simply try to COUNT all the HAIRS in the petri dish you can SEE!

That's the only thing we can do at this point.