Nanogen's "VEGF"

[HairTalk]

I don't want to get into a flaming row. Let's not get personal. I mean disrespect to you. I am a scientist and studied biochemistry.

You replied "I think it's bull-shit because it looks to be another magic-potion item that's marketed with buzzwords like, "V.E.G.F." and "growth factors" — exotic, scientific-sounding terms that land with just enough familiarity on the ears of persons who periodically Google news on hairloss-treatment."

It may look like another potion but it isn't like that. Whilst I understand your frustration (along with mine) at the number of snake oil products, PLEASE do not tarnish this technology with the same brush. VEGF does 100% increase angiogenesis (blood supply proliferation). There is no debate about this. Saying a product contains VEGF or growth factors is not using a buzzword. I fail to see your complaint.

Now peptides are different. This is where your scepticism should be. Most are totally unsuitable and umproven (even in vitro or theoretically). That's the bullshit buzzwords where I share your frustration. Peptide just means small amino acid chains. It's true that growth factors or cytokines are composed of protein like structures but peptide that i meant in the everyday sense in hairloss are all smoke and mirrors in my view. Its ironic and with respect tragic that you buy into peptides but not GF.

If you look at the best argument for peptide mechanism of action, it is actually to mimic growth factors! VEGF is the real thing. I'm passionate as I don't want this technology stiffled by understandable but still misguided cynacism. Just be careful of confusing real growth factor with fake growth factor mimicking peptides. There are also lots of growth factors and you need to be very careful with you use (some upregulate and some downregulate different cellular actions). That's the problem with peptides. They are too broad brush.

As for studies, I was talking to the people at Nanogen at ISHRS and trust me they are serious. Trials are underway but they are not cheap nor fast. Plus you have the dilemma if they work!!! Makes it a drug and therefore can't be sold!! Sometimes informal unpublished studies take place between leading doctors and the word spreads to allow products to sell as cosmetics. I must confess that I never knew about this world until I went there but it makes sense.

If you look at Nanogen growth factor. It's is declared as real VEGF. Not herbal ingredient that increases body production of VEGF or peptide that purports to mimic VEGF. Like Coke, it's the real thing. And synthesised in plants. All very clever stuff that must have cost a fortune. This is very exciting. Maybe other companies are moving in this direction too.

I wish u good wishes as a fellow sufferer navigating the murky snake oil waters.

I can't list papers as no access to pubmed but there are lots including a study by Harvard medical school (or associated hospital). It is very well known that VEGF promotes blood supply.

I, too, don't want to tread into anything personal or to take arms in a flame-war. Please, re-read what I wrote: I did not call into question whether V.E.G.F. promotes angiogenesis; I said there's no evidence that it halts or reverses hairloss. Is there? Don't try to throw at me that increased blood-supply will help address alopecia, either; show me the evidence that V.E.G.F. fights hairloss in an apreciable way.

Saying your product contains V.E.G.F., growth-factor, etc. is exactly using buzz-words to generate interest in your item. There is no indication the compound you're citing will have a positive implication in the treatment you're after; you're just hoping your doing so will pull in a few more customers. By the way, "growth factor" is about as vague and generic a term as, "stuff."

Again, what piece of my post suggested to you that I "buy into" peptides? Let me allay your concern: I don't. I don't believe pouring "growth factor" or V.E.G.F. into a topical syrup is of any value, either, though.

This is your citation: "I was talking to the people at Nanogen [...] and trust me they are serious [sic]"? No, I won't trust you. Sorry.

[doke]

nanogen are they saying to use a dermoroller with there topical?

[UK_]

LOL yeah - probably to make their product appear more like the cure - come on people - this shit has been on the market for too long for us to still be considering if it works or not lol.

LOL what next? Bifidus hair growth serum with dermaroller? lmfao

[andy1965]

Rollers would make sense as growth factor molecules are larger than 500 daltons so will not absorb across skin without mechanical pemetration enhancer although they could absorb down hair follicles. If they didn't say penetration would be enhanced by dermarolling, youd be saying they were scamming. Also there is good science to the idea of wounding leading to the release of WNT proteins that can aid hair follicle health. I think the Pensylvania research was Dr Cotseralis.

Seems that unless a licensed drug, some posters will always cry 'snake oil'. I just don't think it's as clear cut as that. Maybe you want to wait 7 years for licensing or wait for a drug company to invest in something that might not be patentable!!

I did have a quick search for that article I mentioned. It was from the hospital attached to Harvard.

Blood Vessels and Thicker Hair Growth
Researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) have been able to grow hair faster and thicker on mice thanks to a protein that promotes blood vessel growth in their skin. The mouse hair follicles – while no greater in number than those of normal mice – are individually bigger. Collectively, they increase the total volume of hair by 70 percent, the MGH research team reports in the Feb. 19 Journal of Clinical Investigation.
See Also:
Health & Medicine

Hair Loss
Men’s Health
Human Biology
Diseases and Conditions
Hearing Loss
Today’s Healthcare

Reference

Hair follicle
Stem cell treatments
Baldness treatments
Baldness

If the protein has the same powers in humans, it could lead to the first angiogenic therapy for male pattern baldness. “In male pattern hair loss, it’s not that the follicles are gone. They’re just miniature follicles,” says Michael Detmar, MD, associate professor of dermatology at MGH and lead author on the study. “If anyone could find a way to make the follicles bigger, men might grow hair again.” The discovery that increasing blood flow to the scalp helps stave off baldness may be old news to many barbers. For years, they have been advising clients to massage their scalps as way of stimulating circulation and hair growth.

A few scientific studies have suggested that people with hair loss may have fewer blood vessels. But no one had actually measured how closely blood vessel growth is correlated with hair growth, or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place.

To explore these questions, Kiichiro Yano, a research associate in dermatology at MGH, and his colleagues compared two groups of mice, one normal and one genetically programmed to produce an abundance of a protein known to trigger blood vessel growth, VEGF. The VEGF-enhanced mice grew hair faster and thicker in the first two weeks of life than did the control mice.

The VEGF-enhanced mice also regrew hair faster. Shaved 8 week-old VEGF-mice not only grew hair back sooner, they exhibited a 30 percent increase in hair follicle diameter 12 days after depilation. “By overall volume, the hair was about 70 percent thicker than in wild-type mice,” says Detmar. Blood vessels located in the skin surrounding the pumped-up hair follicles were 40% larger in diameter than those found in normal mice, suggesting that the VEGF-mediated angiogenesis was causing the hair to grow faster and thicker.

When normal mice were treated with an antibody that blocks VEGF activity and then shaved, their hair grew back slower and was thinner than their untreated littermates. Twelve days after depilation, the VEGF-deprived mice still displayed bald spots and overall reduced hair growth. “So by modulating VEGF, we can directly influence the size of the hair,” says Detmar.

As for how the VEGF-inspired blood vessels are plumping up the hair shafts, the researchers believe they may be delivering an extra supply of growth factors, in addition to oxygen and nutrients. Detmar and his colleagues are developing a technique to deliver VEGF topically to the scalp. “The question now is can we, by this method, improve hair growth in humans,” he says. “Applying it to humans will be the big challenge.”

Lawrence F. Brown, MD, associate professor of pathology at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, also authored the paper.

The Massachusetts General Hospital, established in 1811, is the original and largest teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School. The MGH conducts the largest hospital-based research program in the United States, with an annual research budget of more than $200 million and major research centers in AIDS, the neurosciences, cardiovascular research, cancer, cutaneous biology, transplantation biology and photo-medicine.

[KeepTheHair]

I don't give a rats ass about blood flow. Thats not my scalps problem. Hair loss is.

This garbage is most likely completely useless.

[KeepTheHair]

Rollers would make sense as growth factor molecules are larger than 500 daltons so will not absorb across skin without mechanical pemetration enhancer although they could absorb down hair follicles. If they didn't say penetration would be enhanced by dermarolling, youd be saying they were scamming. Also there is good science to the idea of wounding leading to the release of WNT proteins that can aid hair follicle health. I think the Pensylvania research was Dr Cotseralis.

Seems that unless a licensed drug, some posters will always cry 'snake oil'. I just don't think it's as clear cut as that. Maybe you want to wait 7 years for licensing or wait for a drug company to invest in something that might not be patentable!!

I did have a quick search for that article I mentioned. It was from the hospital attached to Harvard.

Blood Vessels and Thicker Hair Growth
Researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) have been able to grow hair faster and thicker on mice thanks to a protein that promotes blood vessel growth in their skin. The mouse hair follicles – while no greater in number than those of normal mice – are individually bigger. Collectively, they increase the total volume of hair by 70 percent, the MGH research team reports in the Feb. 19 Journal of Clinical Investigation.
See Also:
Health & Medicine

Hair Loss
Men’s Health
Human Biology
Diseases and Conditions
Hearing Loss
Today’s Healthcare

Reference

Hair follicle
Stem cell treatments
Baldness treatments
Baldness

If the protein has the same powers in humans, it could lead to the first angiogenic therapy for male pattern baldness. “In male pattern hair loss, it’s not that the follicles are gone. They’re just miniature follicles,” says Michael Detmar, MD, associate professor of dermatology at MGH and lead author on the study. “If anyone could find a way to make the follicles bigger, men might grow hair again.” The discovery that increasing blood flow to the scalp helps stave off baldness may be old news to many barbers. For years, they have been advising clients to massage their scalps as way of stimulating circulation and hair growth.

A few scientific studies have suggested that people with hair loss may have fewer blood vessels. But no one had actually measured how closely blood vessel growth is correlated with hair growth, or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place.

To explore these questions, Kiichiro Yano, a research associate in dermatology at MGH, and his colleagues compared two groups of mice, one normal and one genetically programmed to produce an abundance of a protein known to trigger blood vessel growth, VEGF. The VEGF-enhanced mice grew hair faster and thicker in the first two weeks of life than did the control mice.

The VEGF-enhanced mice also regrew hair faster. Shaved 8 week-old VEGF-mice not only grew hair back sooner, they exhibited a 30 percent increase in hair follicle diameter 12 days after depilation. “By overall volume, the hair was about 70 percent thicker than in wild-type mice,” says Detmar. Blood vessels located in the skin surrounding the pumped-up hair follicles were 40% larger in diameter than those found in normal mice, suggesting that the VEGF-mediated angiogenesis was causing the hair to grow faster and thicker.

When normal mice were treated with an antibody that blocks VEGF activity and then shaved, their hair grew back slower and was thinner than their untreated littermates. Twelve days after depilation, the VEGF-deprived mice still displayed bald spots and overall reduced hair growth. “So by modulating VEGF, we can directly influence the size of the hair,” says Detmar.

As for how the VEGF-inspired blood vessels are plumping up the hair shafts, the researchers believe they may be delivering an extra supply of growth factors, in addition to oxygen and nutrients. Detmar and his colleagues are developing a technique to deliver VEGF topically to the scalp. “The question now is can we, by this method, improve hair growth in humans,” he says. “Applying it to humans will be the big challenge.”

Lawrence F. Brown, MD, associate professor of pathology at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, also authored the paper.

The Massachusetts General Hospital, established in 1811, is the original and largest teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School. The MGH conducts the largest hospital-based research program in the United States, with an annual research budget of more than $200 million and major research centers in AIDS, the neurosciences, cardiovascular research, cancer, cutaneous biology, transplantation biology and photo-medicine.

Heard this before a million times. Blah blah blah.

Wheres the growth?

[andy1965]

LOL yeah - probably to make their product appear more like the cure - come on people - this shit has been on the market for too long for us to still be considering if it works or not lol.

LOL what next? Bifidus hair growth serum with dermaroller? lmfao

I think we must be talking at crossed purposes. I thought the Nanogen VEGF Serum was a new product. I don't think anyone is talking "cure". I'm not anyway. There is no cure for baldness. Neither propecia nor minoxidil are cures. That is not to say there is no benefit in increasing size and section of hair follicles and increasing the amount of hair in anagen.

It will certainly be interesting to see any studies. Normally I am totally sceptical but I think targeted growth factors could be a very interesting form of treatment alongside minoxidil and finastetide. VEGF and other gf's have all sorts of chemotactic actions and could well stimulate follicles.

My feeling is it takes decades to lose it all. If you can slow hair follicles from cycling it is theoretically possible to prolong nice hair density. I'm not so binary about this.

[UK_]

Well why are you on here convincing us to buy it? If you like it so much go order yourself some an lather it on, I couldn't care less tbh these corporations are all the same - bunch of lying money grubbing scumbags.

HAHAHAHAAA @"your feelings say it takes decades" - tell that to someone thinning like a mofo at 19 - the best years of their lives ruined by hair loss - I dont know why people dont approach MPB with the same shock horror as other forms of hair loss -

Anyway - I agree with KeepTheHair - viviscal also claimed its bullshit with studies - that was back in 2003 - but we're still here losing our hair, I am sure Thomas Whitfield claimed studies (his phd work) - low and behold... nothing there aswel.

*yawn*.... CyGenX also claimed its product resulted in hair growth in 70% of patients.... low and behold... **** all came of it... same happend with Hair Complex by A&G...... same will happen with Bioregenerative Sciences and the rest of the blood sucking vultures out there.

[HairTalk]

Blood Vessels and Thicker Hair Growth
Researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH) have been able to grow hair faster and thicker on mice thanks to a protein that promotes blood vessel growth in their skin. The mouse hair follicles – while no greater in number than those of normal mice – are individually bigger. Collectively, they increase the total volume of hair by 70 percent, the MGH research team reports in the Feb. 19 Journal of Clinical Investigation.
See Also:
Health & Medicine

Hair Loss
Men’s Health
Human Biology
Diseases and Conditions
Hearing Loss
Today’s Healthcare

Reference

Hair follicle
Stem cell treatments
Baldness treatments
Baldness

If the protein has the same powers in humans, it could lead to the first angiogenic therapy for male pattern baldness. “In male pattern hair loss, it’s not that the follicles are gone. They’re just miniature follicles,” says Michael Detmar, MD, associate professor of dermatology at MGH and lead author on the study. “If anyone could find a way to make the follicles bigger, men might grow hair again.” The discovery that increasing blood flow to the scalp helps stave off baldness may be old news to many barbers. For years, they have been advising clients to massage their scalps as way of stimulating circulation and hair growth.

A few scientific studies have suggested that people with hair loss may have fewer blood vessels. But no one had actually measured how closely blood vessel growth is correlated with hair growth, or what might cause scalp vessels to grow in the first place.

To explore these questions, Kiichiro Yano, a research associate in dermatology at MGH, and his colleagues compared two groups of mice, one normal and one genetically programmed to produce an abundance of a protein known to trigger blood vessel growth, VEGF. The VEGF-enhanced mice grew hair faster and thicker in the first two weeks of life than did the control mice.

The VEGF-enhanced mice also regrew hair faster. Shaved 8 week-old VEGF-mice not only grew hair back sooner, they exhibited a 30 percent increase in hair follicle diameter 12 days after depilation. “By overall volume, the hair was about 70 percent thicker than in wild-type mice,” says Detmar. Blood vessels located in the skin surrounding the pumped-up hair follicles were 40% larger in diameter than those found in normal mice, suggesting that the VEGF-mediated angiogenesis was causing the hair to grow faster and thicker.

When normal mice were treated with an antibody that blocks VEGF activity and then shaved, their hair grew back slower and was thinner than their untreated littermates. Twelve days after depilation, the VEGF-deprived mice still displayed bald spots and overall reduced hair growth. “So by modulating VEGF, we can directly influence the size of the hair,” says Detmar.

As for how the VEGF-inspired blood vessels are plumping up the hair shafts, the researchers believe they may be delivering an extra supply of growth factors, in addition to oxygen and nutrients. Detmar and his colleagues are developing a technique to deliver VEGF topically to the scalp. “The question now is can we, by this method, improve hair growth in humans,” he says. “Applying it to humans will be the big challenge.”

Lawrence F. Brown, MD, associate professor of pathology at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, also authored the paper.

The Massachusetts General Hospital, established in 1811, is the original and largest teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School. The MGH conducts the largest hospital-based research program in the United States, with an annual research budget of more than $200 million and major research centers in AIDS, the neurosciences, cardiovascular research, cancer, cutaneous biology, transplantation biology and photo-medicine.

I'm not a mouse. Look, I'm not trying to be purposely obtuse, but we've all seen myriad news stories pop up now and then about hair-growth in a lab.-rat at some university; to date, not one measure implicated in such an incident has been F.D.A.-approved to treat baldness in human beings (minoxidil and finasteride were found to have effects on alopecia in men taking the drugs for other purposes).

Nanogen makes a decent concealer (it's not great, and the claims of what it can do are exaggerated, but it does beat Toppik the hell out of the field); using that to try to sell this serum might find some success, but I have yet to hear of the product's efficacy. I started this thread to see if anyone would share his or her experience with the product, but even that's not yet happened (perhaps no one's been fool enough to bite the c-note-plus bullet).

[andy1965]

I'm not a mouse. Look, I'm not trying to be purposely obtuse, but we've all seen myriad news stories pop up now and then about hair-growth in a lab.-rat at some university; to date, not one measure implicated in such an incident has been F.D.A.-approved to treat baldness in human beings (minoxidil and finasteride were found to have effects on alopecia in men taking the drugs for other purposes).

Nanogen makes a decent concealer (it's not great, and the claims of what it can do are exaggerated, but it does beat Toppik the hell out of the field); using that to try to sell this serum might find some success, but I have yet to hear of the product's efficacy. I started this thread to see if anyone would share his or her experience with the product, but even that's not yet happened (perhaps no one's been fool enough to bite the c-note-plus bullet).

This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent and I might be a but to blame. I am responding to others comments too so this isn't at you necessarily but not too good with how to work the forum buttons. I have to go out now so let me summarise my position:

1) there are some very knowledgable people posting here who like me are cynical and demanding proof. I respect this. I personally think that cytokines will be at the heart of a lot of medicine including hairloss. I'm interested in PRP and topical growth factors.

2) I was impressed with Nanogen BECAUSE they were dismissive about regrowth and without being pressed. They said they had been looking at this for years. They said they had encouraging results with informal volunteer trials and were collaborating with US based researchers. Maybe Spencer knows about this or any announcements. I don't know. They said earlier VEGF products had one key problem. The source of material - to do with the correct 3D folding of proteins. As a biochemist this makes sense. Maybe they have marketing people coming up with they web text i dont know but what i saw was totally non'slick white coat types. They had no reason to go into this detail. I was impressed that they seemed committed to science and trying to advance the knowledge of this area. Thats why i felt the duty to give balance cos i know there are decent people working on research there. All I meant to do with my posts was provide balance because they seemed to be serious. Let's put it this way, if it comes to nothing then thats science rather than scamming and we must all remember that if we don't support the companies that try to research then we may be cutting our noses to spite our face. Their claims seem understated compared with the type you get from a vitamin B shampoo so credit where it's due.

3. I am not trying to get anyone to buy anything. That is a cheap shot trying to undermine or discredit me rather than my arguments. I will not descend into this level of discussion. I do know people have been burnt so no hard feelings. I'm optimistic and interested to give it a try. My expectations are to reduce loss and I will be able to judge an effect with faster trips to barber. I think faster hair growth is a good sign.

Unless I have to respond to unfair comments then I wish all well and need to leave it here as the wife is asking who I'm typing to when we are running late.

[PatientlyWaiting]

I'm not arguing that most of the products out there are not scams, but to be fair, not everything under the sun is. The reason I'm taking TRX2 is because I believe there is something to it. I could give you a few reasons to why I believe it will, but it can be just as easy to negate and dismiss those reasons i.e. Thomas Whitfield has his PhD in this related field from Oxford, backed by other reputable organizations, reasonable explanation of how it works, clinical trials underway and to be released soon, etc, etc.

I wish I can believe along with you, that way I can buy in to it as well. No before and after pics to show that works, yet people buy in to it. And still no before and after pics now.

What makes you believe this will work, is it working for you?

[doke]

The thing is that i tried nanogen nanogaine a few years ago and it was money down the drain and also expensive,this new vegf and all the other products that nanogen says you should use ie:scalp clean shampoo,a condition product,and a oral one a day tablet plus more would cost many £££$$$$$ a month if you only buy the vegf serum and it did not work then nanogen would say well you have to use all the products? and not to mention the scalp roller that they have a disinfectent to clean after use and has to be replaced every 3 months,why can't we have one product no shampoos that works like minoxidil was supposed to be.

[HairTalk]

The thing is that i tried nanogen nanogaine a few years ago and it was money down the drain and also expensive,this new vegf and all the other products that nanogen says you should use ie:scalp clean shampoo,a condition product,and a oral one a day tablet plus more would cost many £££$$$$$ a month if you only buy the vegf serum and it did not work then nanogen would say well you have to use all the products? and not to mention the scalp roller that they have a disinfectent to clean after use and has to be replaced every 3 months,why can't we have one product no shampoos that works like minoxidil was supposed to be.

As far as Nanogen is concerned, I think their only real product is the concealer (the fibers), though even that's over-priced (compared with the competition, Toppik). Everything else is just an add-on–hocking way to try to make extra cash. A $20.00 shampoo (8 oz.)? $24.00 conditioner (8 oz.)? $18.00 "locking mist" (3.4 oz.)? It's all the stuff you can get on sale at your local drug-store for a small fraction of the cost.

[UK_]

As far as Nanogen is concerned, I think their only real product is the concealer (the fibers), though even that's over-priced (compared with the competition, Toppik). Everything else is just an add-on–hocking way to try to make extra cash. A $20.00 shampoo (8 oz.)? $24.00 conditioner (8 oz.)? $18.00 "locking mist" (3.4 oz.)? It's all the stuff you can get on sale at your local drug-store for a small fraction of the cost.

Dont forget the stupid ass "hair retention" pills - nothing but Saw Palmetto that can be purchased in a generic form from any drug store £15 for a 3 months supply.

What a rip.

[HairTalk]

Dont forget the stupid ass "hair retention" pills - nothing but Saw Palmetto that can be purchased in a generic form from any drug store £15 for a 3 months supply.

What a rip.

I don't see that on their Web site (http://www.nanogenhair.com/order.htm). Perhaps it was discontinued?