Histogen Update - Spencer Kobren Speaks With Dr. Craig L. Ziering

[Jundam]

Holy crap, comparing increased medical options for hair loss to the shit that Josef Mengele did is just totally insane!! That comparison is just absolutely retarded to put it bluntly. If scientists tested more of their findings on humans, it would all be voluntary and many people would literally jump at the chance to try something that could significantly better their lives.
Of course mice are being tested on because of their expendability and because there are so many of them and they are so easy to obtain. And of course they should always be tested on first, before human testing begins. But how much are you helping people and society if you just experiment on mice, and mice only? You say that they are working to "obtain a greater understanding or knowledge base", yet this has been done for 25 years by countless so-called researchers and scientists with not even an attempt towards human application. Countless experiments on mice have been done that state that chemicals like WNT, Noggin, and BMP inhibitors could lead to increased hair growth yet no one is taking it beyond the mouse stage. How can we possibly know if these chemicals work on humans if they are not tried on humans in the first place? If one scientist proves that WNT proteins can lead to hair regrowth, there is no need for countless other scientists to conduct experiments on mice to prove the same thing over and over again and never try them on humans. And a lot of these scientists then say that their discoveries could lead to clinical trials yet none are ever performed. They say that their studies "could lead to clinical trials" because that entices newspapers and magazines to pay money for the rights to report on their experiments. If they stated "we only test on mice and we have absolutely no desire to develop anything to benefit humans", then no publication would give a shit. So in that respect, these scientists do very much care about making money. These discoveries that they publicize lead to speaking engagements and public accolades, all of which generate more money for their labs and themselves.
The fact that there are literally hundreds of scientists who work to "further their base of knowledge" and test on only mice yet only a handful that even attempt to test their discoveries on humans is very suspicious. That "expanding their knowledge base" is a very weak arguments. Hair loss has supposedly been researched to death for literally 25 years, with tons of potential remedies that have been proposed. Yet none of these remedies were ever tested on humans, which is downright glaringly suspicious. The only things that we have are 2 drugs that weren't even developed to treat hair loss in the first stage. With all of the so-called discoveries made when it comes to hair loss, it is just inexcusable that we don't have better options, other than the garbage that is out today.

You act as if there's a superior breed of humans who have all the answers at their fingertips but are too busy fiddling with mice. There's not. They're using mice as tools to further their base of knowledge which is not a ****ing argument, it's a ****ing fact. Science isn't math, there's not a set amount of numbers in the game. Every year thousands of completely new variables are discovered and the vast majority of them are discovered through experiments. One day the knowledge gained from those experiments might be found to be applicable to human problems. And if they are you can rest assured that companies will be jumping the opportunity to be the first to market it. Propecia and Rogaine may sell, but if there was a better treatment that gave us a full head of hair back without any devastating side effects it would probably be the most profitable treatment in the world. Everybody who sees a shot at being the one that puts it on the market will take it.

To suggest humans should be used at an earlier stage than they are is a sign of either ignorance or apathy. If laws allowed humans to be used as labrats do you think only willing, well-to-do people would be used? Because that's just not going to be the case. Big pharmaceuticals would target the poor and the homeless, any and all who need a little money would be asked to pull up one sleeve or swallow a pill and many of them would do it without knowing what the outcome would be. That is why I compare it to Mengele's experiments. It might not be as vile but it is still inhumane to allow it.

[DepressedByHairLoss]

No one is acting like some of these scientists are a 'superior breed' at all. Yet they are given so many tools which should be at their disposal to find more cures and treatments for diseases and other maladies, yet so many of them are just content on testing on mice for their entire careers. Nobody is (or should) be granting them money for many years (in some cases, more than 20 years) to "broaden their knowledge base" and not do anything effective for humans. Eventually you've got to develop something meaningful or develop a solution; not just keep gaining insight and knowledge by experimenting on mice. No one is arguing that mice are effective tool to be tested on to expand the knowledge base, or whatever. But eventually, after something is proven to work on mice countless times, then it's got to be attempted to be brought to human application. I mean, no one knows if a potential treatment is going to work on humans unless it's tested on humans. And right now, there are so many potentially effective treatments and they're not even being attempted to be brought to a level to benefit humans. Hell, if in other walks of life and in other jobs, a worker never attempted to solve a problem, but kept gaining 'insight', 'clues', and 'knowledge' in how to solve the problem (but never attempted to solve it), then they'd be out on their ass. The same should apply here.
I'd like to buy your argument that one day when there is a potential cure for hair loss, then companies will be jumping all over it. But I just don't buy it at all. There are plenty of potential cures (WNT, Noggin, BMP inhibitors, hedgehog agonists, etc.), yet I don't see any company jumping all over anything. I hear the argument all the time that since there would be so much money to be made from a hair loss treatment, that companies jump at the chance to release it. Yet there are only a handful of companies that are even working towards releasing a meaningful hair loss product!! If these companies were interested in releasing an effective hair loss treatment, then there would be more than only a handful of companies working to achieve the goal.
And no one is suggesting that humans should be used in earlier stages, so save those stupid 'apathy' and 'ignorance' comments. I even explicitly stated that mice should be used initially. My beef is that all of these promising treatments for hair loss are NEVER tested on humans, despite being tested on mice time and time again. Human beings would not be targeted as labrats at all, that's just a ridiculous comment; almost as ridiculous as the pharmaceutical companies targeting the homeless for clinical trials. Trials are ALWAYS VOLUNTARY and no one is being forced into anything. And people whose lives are adversely affected by hair loss would literally jump at the chance to regrow their hair. Again, comparing trying new hair loss treatments on voluntary participants to the atrocities that Mengele committed is just an insane comment.

[Jundam]

No one is acting like some of these scientists are a 'superior breed' at all. Yet they are given so many tools which should be at their disposal to find more cures and treatments for diseases and other maladies, yet so many of them are just content on testing on mice for their entire careers. Nobody is (or should) be granting them money for many years (in some cases, more than 20 years) to "broaden their knowledge base" and not do anything effective for humans. Eventually you've got to develop something meaningful or develop a solution; not just keep gaining insight and knowledge by experimenting on mice. No one is arguing that mice are effective tool to be tested on to expand the knowledge base, or whatever. But eventually, after something is proven to work on mice countless times, then it's got to be attempted to be brought to human application. I mean, no one knows if a potential treatment is going to work on humans unless it's tested on humans. And right now, there are so many potentially effective treatments and they're not even being attempted to be brought to a level to benefit humans. Hell, if in other walks of life and in other jobs, a worker never attempted to solve a problem, but kept gaining 'insight', 'clues', and 'knowledge' in how to solve the problem (but never attempted to solve it), then they'd be out on their ass. The same should apply here.
I'd like to buy your argument that one day when there is a potential cure for hair loss, then companies will be jumping all over it. But I just don't buy it at all. There are plenty of potential cures (WNT, Noggin, BMP inhibitors, hedgehog agonists, etc.), yet I don't see any company jumping all over anything. I hear the argument all the time that since there would be so much money to be made from a hair loss treatment, that companies jump at the chance to release it. Yet there are only a handful of companies that are even working towards releasing a meaningful hair loss product!! If these companies were interested in releasing an effective hair loss treatment, then there would be more than only a handful of companies working to achieve the goal.
And no one is suggesting that humans should be used in earlier stages, so save those stupid 'apathy' and 'ignorance' comments. I even explicitly stated that mice should be used initially. My beef is that all of these promising treatments for hair loss are NEVER tested on humans, despite being tested on mice time and time again. Human beings would not be targeted as labrats at all, that's just a ridiculous comment; almost as ridiculous as the pharmaceutical companies targeting the homeless for clinical trials. Trials are ALWAYS VOLUNTARY and no one is being forced into anything. And people whose lives are adversely affected by hair loss would literally jump at the chance to regrow their hair. Again, comparing trying new hair loss treatments on voluntary participants to the atrocities that Mengele committed is just an insane comment.

You don't seem to comprehend anything I write and I can't stand to go through more badly written blocks of text so I'll just get out right here.

[DepressedByHairLoss]

Badly written blocks of texts? Whatever. But let's get back to what this thread is really all about: Histogen's upcoming treatment for hair loss. I really give Drs. Naughton and Ziering a ton of credit for attempting to bring such a potentially effective and minimally invasive treatment to fruition.

[CVAZBAR]

One last call for Doc Z! What's going on with Histogen??????????? Where you at Doc????

[HairTalk]

Dr. Ziering, any word on the status of Histogen's trial on H.S.C.? We'd appreciate an update.

Thank you much.

[mlao]

Dr. Ziering, any word on the status of Histogen's trial on H.S.C.? We'd appreciate an update.

Thank you much.

if they did in fact start them in June. I don't think they would have much to report.
It would take at least 3 to 6 months to see any kind of result.

Plus it looks like Dr. Zering is concentrating on his own practice.

http://www.zieringmedical.com/?gclid=CJOAr_WgrKoCFZV25QodYgm2Uw

Hope this helps.

[HairTalk]

if they did in fact start them in June. I don't think they would have much to report.
It would take at least 3 to 6 months to see any kind of result.

Plus it looks like Dr. Zering is concentrating on his own practice.

http://www.zieringmedical.com/?gclid=CJOAr_WgrKoCFZV25QodYgm2Uw

Hope this helps.

I understand. I'm simply interested to know whether the trial has, indeed, begun (i.e., whether all subjects have been recruited and testing has commenced).

[tonypizza]

You would think they'd like to give good news to retain confidence in the market who are thinking of having a hair transplant instead of waiting for an injectable.

I won't lock in my opinion on efficacy until I see pictures after theraputic doses are given, but based on the results that have been released thus far all the market can expect is a Rogaine-like result. I've seen no evidence of new and thick hair growth from this product thus far.

Aderans is talking about 14 hairs per square centimetre to prove efficacy to the FDA. If that's all we can hope for from this product we'll all be disappointed.

[mlao]

Dr. Ziering, any word on the status of Histogen's trial on H.S.C.? We'd appreciate an update.

Thank you much.

You would think they'd like to give good news to retain confidence in the market who are thinking of having a hair transplant instead of waiting for an injectable.

I won't lock in my opinion on efficacy until I see pictures after theraputic doses are given, but based on the results that have been released thus far all the market can expect is a Rogaine-like result. I've seen no evidence of new and thick hair growth from this product thus far.

Aderans is talking about 14 hairs per square centimetre to prove efficacy to the FDA. If that's all we can hope for from this product we'll all be disappointed.

Well Dr. Zering is a transplant surgeon and judging from his website that is his main expertise.
As for efficacy I agree there has not been a great deal of photographic evidence that suggests HSC produces a big cosmetic improvement.
To add to that Histogen is a tiny company compared to Pfizer or Merck. I can't imagine an investment of 5 to 10 million going that far.
That said even though Aderan's is slow and silent most of the time. They probably have a lot more cash than Histogen and have established a large network of clinical trials so I will remain hopeful.
What I would really like to see from Histogen is more regular updates from Dr. Gail Norton.

[DepressedByHairLoss]

Damn, I hope he's not so focused on this new office in Chicago, that the development of the HSC complex is neglected. What really bugs me is when all these doctors offer nothing but hair transplants, despite the fact that I believe most people do not even want to get a hair transplant in the first place.

[Mojo Risin]

I'm 22 years and almost Norwood 4 so a hair transplant is not the solution for me at all. Sometimes I wonder if these guys are just greedy crooks who doesn't care about anything but their wallet.

Anyway, this summer is kinda depressing for hair loss sufferer ... we have absolutly nothing positive to hold on to.

[Flowers]

I'm 22 years and almost Norwood 4 so a hair transplant is not the solution for me at all.

Why do you say that? How's the rest of your hair (donor)?

[Mojo Risin]

Lol dude, it's written in the sky that I'll be Norwood 7 before I'm 25 years old so getting a hair transplant would be a suicidal move. I don't even want to look into it, I know it's not for me. It's like if Patrick Stewart had a transplant.

And at 22 years old, I barely have enough money to go to college and live by myself so I won't invest 5000$ in a transplant that is probably going to look like shit anyway. I'd rather wait for Replicel, Histogen, Aderans, Astressin-B, Follica, Nitric Oxyde Gel and all that stuff ... never knows ... so far, I'm shaving my head, it's a ''full'' head of hair or nothing so ...

[Flowers]

Well you could stop at NW5 or even if you get to 6 you're not doomed. 7 is pretty rare and means it drops lower to your ears. They say around 4500 grafts can restore a NW5/6 to a good look if you have realistic goals. Don't be so down especially now with this new Gho stuff possibly working.