I think I've hacked it

[youngin]

Yongie: also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22283397

I cannot read the full article of the study your image and information about 5aR was pulled from but this study: http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/...jcem.86.6.7545 references the one you pulled from and says:

In addition, AR mRNA was found to be expressed at a higher level in cultured DP cells from androgen-responsive hair follicles, such as beard and axillary hairs, than in those from follicles of occipital hairs (22). However, we failed to detect any quantitative differences in terms of the level of expression of AR mRNA in DP cells between balding and nonbalding scalp....We did not find any differences in terms of the expression of AR, 5αR1 and 5αR2 mRNAs, or in terms of 5αR activity between hair follicles from balding and nonbalding scalp.

I am inclined to have to ignore the science around this because I have seen many different variations of this in papers. There more, there's not more, 5aR or AR, its only in the DP, no its in the whole follicle. I will look into Minoxidil's action on Beta-Catenin further but I do not currently believe this is the method of action it uses.

If all of this AR talk was true you should be able to reverse all hair loss by castration and we both know that doesn't work. There is not enough meaningful testosterone in the body after that to continue to cause balding, yet it cant reverse it all... this should tell you something else is happening completely independent of testosterone. Multiple studies have shown the scarring/fibrosis that happens after miniaturization, and I don't see how your solution would solve that. However, it makes sense that Minoxidil and rolling would solve that.

[FGF11]

Yongie: also read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22283397

* It means that, for some epigenetic reasons, AR and 5-AR are not expressed in occipital scalp.

[FGF11]

FGF11 - I appreciate all the work you are doing. Can you please address my question though. Why would AR issues cause balding in a pattern? Why would minoxidil be the BEST growth stimulator if the problem was purely AR? It doesn't add up. Dermarolling + Minoxidil are far better growth stimulators than Finasteride will ever be.

Hey, Tnx.

Take a look at this:


This is the expression profile of AR and 5-AR,

what you notice is that Occipital part of the Scalp and Frontal part of the Scalp have differential AR and 5-AR expression. It means that, for some epigenetic reasons, AR and 5-AR are not expressed in frontal scalp.

This is why in GWAS studies, you see HDAC proteins and PAX (a homeobox) proteins show up. HDAC proteins are epigenetic modulators, in a sense they cause gene to go silent or get expressed. In this cases, developmental changes cause different expression patterns in people with AGA, and so because of HDACs gene expression profiles change. This change cause further immunogenetics responses that you see.


As I told you, frontal scalp is developmentally different from occipital scalp.

Imagine your fingers (toe and thumbs), they look kind of the same, right? but they are actually different.

Same as occipital and frontal region of the head. So, since they are developmentally different, they act and age differently.

So, that's the reason there is a pattern.

Maybe evolutionary, it was advantageous.

As for why Minoxidil works in both males and females is this:

Minoxidil works, I suppose, because it helps the release of beta catenin.

Now, its mode of action is different from Lithium Chloride.

It releases beta-catenin, maybe, by simply inhibiting its binding (or GSK-3) to AR (it also binds AR). Now, lithium Chloride can't do that, or any external beta-catenin stimulator (to a degree).

To get a better sense of what I'm sating, imagine, AR is the main cause of miniaturization and Beta-catenin is needed for regrowth (It's very simple explanation but helps my discussion), so for already miniaturized follicles AR nuclear inhibition can't help, because, they need beta-catenin, to go in anagen.

However, beta-catenin activation in already saturated cytoplasmic AR is impossible, as both GSK-3 and Beta-catenin are modulated by AR, and AR inhibits their action.

Derma-rolling might help, (I'm not a fan) by increasing growth stimulants, and it works better with Minox, I guess, just because it helps it's absorption.

One more thing, you need to know is that AR expression cause lineage differentiation of keratinocytes toward sebaceous gland, so basically, just stopping AR will stop oily and itchy scalp as well.

I tried to explain it simply, hope that helps. You can search for references yourself, as I didn't have time to put it here.

[youngin]

I actually got results from zinc. I'm not sure it will work for everyone, maybe I was severely deficient.

It mostly filled in the "sideburn to temple" thinning area that you see on some people. I think I read somewhere that that area in particular is where you thin if you're iron deficient-- so maybe zinc deficiency is a similar situation.

I'm not saying zinc can substitute fin but it gave me (potentially) actual cosmetic regrowth... I'd say it's worth everyone getting on a zinc supplement. It has benefits beyond potentially be good for your hair.

I agree. There are multiple studies showing how Zinc affect 5AR. It most definitely regulates it. Most people on this board should be supplementing with it as the dietary amount we get is very little in a Western diet. To re-iterate what you said, no one is claiming it can destroy 5AR the way that Finasteride does.

[youngin]

Apparently you're in the wrong forum.

Here we want to see cutting edge treatments with photographic evidence and results.

I am grateful for this guys work but i've been here for about 8 years (lost my old account) and Ill always lobby for proof. Words are cheap. Even the fancy long spiels.

The OP never said he had proof of anything or that he even accomplished anything. My comments were about dermarolling and proof has already been given to that. I would say going from a NW6 to a NW3 is pretty cutting edge though. The best thing about OP is that hes actually using his brain and trying things. This isn't the best place to report it because of all the negativity around anything other than the big 3.

[pixels]

Apparently you can't read. I didn't say they alone would regrow a single hair. Go away you troll.

Apparently you're in the wrong forum.

Here we want to see cutting edge treatments with photographic evidence and results.

I am grateful for this guys work but i've been here for about 8 years (lost my old account) and Ill always lobby for proof. Words are cheap. Even the fancy long spiels.

[Ulti1]

Wish I could help you. Realistically, The only thing I really could do for you is build you a site.

Unless you want me to come to your lab and pretend like I'm working on tobacco plants by watching "how to do science experiments " on youtube. Which would probably end in me getting frustrated and trying to smoke the plant.

id atleast need to be payed 2$ an hour and bum on your couch though. Let's do it! Haha

[NeedHairASAP]

#1 - Finasteride nor any androgen based therapy is going to regrow the amount of hair possible with Minoxidil. As already mentioned, castration only stops hair loss... it doesn't act as ultimate regrowth.
#2 - If dermarolling is extremely uncomfortable you are doing it wrong. It does not have to be as aggressive as some people make it.
#3 - You have not followed the long term dermarolling progress. PrettyFly83 went from a NW6 to almost a NW3. In this study men on Finasteride AND Minox for 2-5 years were at a stand still and started regrowing more hair after adding dermarolling:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26120151

Everyone on this forum is far underestimating it because of dumbasses like fred. No one is doing long term runs with the correct supplements for skin support (MSM / Vitamin C / Zinc).

I actually got results from zinc. I'm not sure it will work for everyone, maybe I was severely deficient.

It mostly filled in the "sideburn to temple" thinning area that you see on some people. I think I read somewhere that that area in particular is where you thin if you're iron deficient-- so maybe zinc deficiency is a similar situation.

I'm not saying zinc can substitute fin but it gave me (potentially) actual cosmetic regrowth... I'd say it's worth everyone getting on a zinc supplement. It has benefits beyond potentially be good for your hair.

[youngin]

None of these will regrow a single hair. Show me one before/after picture, just one! I can show you thousands for minoxidil/finasteride/hair transplants.

Apparently you can't read. I didn't say they alone would regrow a single hair. Go away you troll.

[fred970]

No one is doing long term runs with the correct supplements for skin support (MSM / Vitamin C / Zinc).

None of these will regrow a single hair. Show me one before/after picture, just one! I can show you thousands for minoxidil/finasteride/hair transplants.

[youngin]

Finasteride can do far more for miniaturization regrowth than minox or derma rolling could ever hope to in people with somewhat recent loss and no actual bald spots.

Derma rolling is also extremely uncomfortable and leaves you looking ridiculous and in pain.

I do like minox added to a DHT blocker though.

The sad truth is until there is a real breakthrough NW4 and up are just screwed outside of a HT. No amount of derma rolling and minox is going to take you back to NW2 or better. Maybe a deep NW3.

#1 - Finasteride nor any androgen based therapy is going to regrow the amount of hair possible with Minoxidil. As already mentioned, castration only stops hair loss... it doesn't act as ultimate regrowth.
#2 - If dermarolling is extremely uncomfortable you are doing it wrong. It does not have to be as aggressive as some people make it.
#3 - You have not followed the long term dermarolling progress. PrettyFly83 went from a NW6 to almost a NW3. In this study men on Finasteride AND Minox for 2-5 years were at a stand still and started regrowing more hair after adding dermarolling:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26120151

Everyone on this forum is far underestimating it because of dumbasses like fred. No one is doing long term runs with the correct supplements for skin support (MSM / Vitamin C / Zinc).

[NeedHairASAP]

Thanks to share your knowledge. Some people here are like virus who try to suck positivity of person who still have faith. Is your treatment is working or no? Photo or no? So what man you try to do something people who dislike you should not come here and say you make them lost their time they are making lose your time.

Some are immature I know that Fred is popular and he claim that he want to prevent people by losing time or buying false treatment but shit this guy never answer to my comment I ask him for his help a lot of time still I respect him and like how he think but god he never answer me we suppose to help each other here. It's true that many people come here and fake treatment and some want to help but they doesn't do it right and got angry lol... Fred got scam I understand that but he should let people share their knowledge.

And it's true scientist or high doctor are full of ego... They think they know everything and treat you like shit. I got a injury and when I try to give my opinion on it they decline it and say it's can't be that cuz he just doesn't care. Still I never get healed.

Continue posting and sharing. But I wonder if none of theses treatment work and if your treatment is really expensive and not confirmed yet what should we do now is there anything we can do!?

What people don't get is that he is using patented chemicals and he could never profit from this... at most maybe the company who owns the patent may hire him to work on it. But this guy can not sell his treatment to us (for a number of reasons).

MAYBE he could try to do black market sales of this, but if he really has even a mediocrity successful career as of now, it makes no sense for him to try and start a black market checmical company in china...

which means he is just some guy with access to lab equipment who is willing to give some experimental stuff a try out of general curiosity and a want to solve this bald problem...

So I don't get why people are acting like he "needs to show proof" as if he is trying to sell this to us... yes... showing pictures etc. would be awesome... but this is not the same situation as say... histogen.... who is soliciting investor funds and trying to sell something... they VERY MUCH need to show proof.

So, lets give it a break.

[Onion Knight]

Do you really think they care? I mean the researchers.

Do you even know how scientific grants work. You write a whole grant, based on your previous publications, and then you show some preliminary data, and then you compete with a bunch of other people to get a grant that can possibly support you, may be, for the next 5 years or so.

Do you know, scientists have to use bunch of previous money to produce that preliminary data, in the first place.

Do you think I haven't tried to contact Dr. Cotsarelis? I think the guy is smart, but they are hugely restricted on what they can do and what they can’t do.

Do you know we live in a world of paradoxes?

Do you have any idea you have to wait at least four months until your protocol get accepted so you could do a tiny experiment on mice? Then we kill and eat at millions of millions of animals, much smarter than mice every year to eat and then die of hear attack.

Do you know if today, you convince the whole world that silencing AR is way more effective than Finasteride and Minoxidil and Way more SAFE, and it works, you have to wait at least five to six years for it to hit the market, if EVER, because it will be expensive and not practical.

Do you know I’m doubtful if anyone completely understood what I’ve written here.

Do you think I’m less knowledgable than them, the researchers. Just because I wrote my findings here. Do you think if I could have started my START-UP, I wouldn’t have done so.

No, it’s ****ing hard.

Time will convince people that I’ve been right or not. Or my next set of experiments. I was hoping I could find some knowledgeable people here, so I could keep in contact with them, and start doing something together.

Do you think when I said, I’m to going make it work, it's easy. Do you really know hard is it to really do so?

I’m trying to culture E.Coli cells to make me enough amount of siRNA’s so I could test my hypothesis. Do you know how much reading I have done, and how planning I have done. Do you know how much work does that take. How much testing? Do you know how much of my own money I’m putting on this.

Do you know about ego? and how it has killed so many advancements in the past.

Have you heard about United Therapeutics? the story behind its founder. GO READ IT.

Do you know the first people who found adult stem cells, have told the news SO MANY TIMES, that if some one came to them and propose to them iPSC cells, they would have never give the guy any money to do his experiments in the first place. iPSC cells have changed the world.

SCIENTISTS ARE FULL OF EGO.

Do you think if I could test my finding with experiments, I couldn't have done so.

Gosh jeez, some people here, don’t know the difference between a molecule and a cell phone.

Do you think I care about other people? do you think they care about what I’ve written here? It’s a ****ing messed up world, do something. Don’t sit on your butt, man.

Sooner or later, someone will try what I’ve done here, the pharma and it will be known if it works or not. But I can’t wait for that time to come. Because science is slow, and biotech is greedy.

I believe in what I’ve done, based on what I’ve seen, it may end up NOT working, but at least in my spare time I have actually tried to impact my life, and MAY BE those around me.

I don’t have anything to sell, god, these people.

Mark Zuckerberg, gives all his money to charity and just read the comments. Man, the world is SO messed up.

No reason, scientists don’t care to contact people directly, and ignore them like they are a plague. Watch the documentary life according to sam, watch the movie Lorenzo Oil, do you know how much criticism these people got. These are all true stories.

I'm just trying to my best people, and to me it makes sense more and more every day.

Thanks to share your knowledge. Some people here are like virus who try to suck positivity of person who still have faith. Is your treatment is working or no? Photo or no? So what man you try to do something people who dislike you should not come here and say you make them lost their time they are making lose your time.

Some are immature I know that Fred is popular and he claim that he want to prevent people by losing time or buying false treatment but shit this guy never answer to my comment I ask him for his help a lot of time still I respect him and like how he think but god he never answer me we suppose to help each other here. It's true that many people come here and fake treatment and some want to help but they doesn't do it right and got angry lol... Fred got scam I understand that but he should let people share their knowledge.

And it's true scientist or high doctor are full of ego... They think they know everything and treat you like shit. I got a injury and when I try to give my opinion on it they decline it and say it's can't be that cuz he just doesn't care. Still I never get healed.

Continue posting and sharing. But I wonder if none of theses treatment work and if your treatment is really expensive and not confirmed yet what should we do now is there anything we can do!?

[BaldingEagle]

FGF11 - I appreciate all the work you are doing. Can you please address my question though. Why would AR issues cause balding in a pattern? Why would minoxidil be the BEST growth stimulator if the problem was purely AR? It doesn't add up. Dermarolling + Minoxidil are far better growth stimulators than Finasteride will ever be.

Finasteride can do far more for miniaturization regrowth than minox or derma rolling could ever hope to in people with somewhat recent loss and no actual bald spots.

Derma rolling is also extremely uncomfortable and leaves you looking ridiculous and in pain.

I do like minox added to a DHT blocker though.

The sad truth is until there is a real breakthrough NW4 and up are just screwed outside of a HT. No amount of derma rolling and minox is going to take you back to NW2 or better. Maybe a deep NW3.

[pixels]

FGF11 - I appreciate all the work you are doing. Can you please address my question though. Why would AR issues cause balding in a pattern? Why would minoxidil be the BEST growth stimulator if the problem was purely AR? It doesn't add up. Dermarolling + Minoxidil are far better growth stimulators than Finasteride will ever be.

ftw111 doesn't even know if it's going to work on himself yet.

We don't even know if fgf11 is legit yet (yup need photos).