Updated Research and Knowledge - Cutting Edge

[joshuk]

using this ethanol tincture http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o02_s00

do you think if i put a cap of EGCG into it, it would not mess up the Oleuropein im also using CB-03-01 (AR blocker??) would their be any point with EGCG if im using an AA or do you think it could compliment it

[joshuk]

chemical im going to make a new topical with EGCG and Oleuropein in it

gonna use 60/40 mix of ethanol/pg so if i make a 60ml solution being 40ml ethanol 20ml PG

Oleuropein caps are = http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o03_s00
EGCG caps are = http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o00_s00

how many caps of each would you add?? just 1 im thinking as a trial or would you add more

also for people wanting to try this in europe i got my ethanol from https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/P-15105.aspx

and proplyene glycol from http://www.cremedevape.com/epages/yx...jectID=4164040

im also using CB-03-01 and setipirant/ neogenic and adenonise castor oil 1ml orally and nizoral 3 times a week.
so hoping this stacked with these will bring results ( cant use minox otherwise i would )

[Chemical]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00B2U9MW4?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

Looking at that product again it seems it may be not 100% effective as kirkland minox vehicle seeing as its got only 36% ethanol derived from cane sugar(?):

Raw Olive Leaf, Olive Leaf Extract (20% oleuropein standardised), ethanol 36% (derived from cane sugar), purified water.

And although its a prepared solution, it doesnt gaurantee it'll be as effective as a custom vehicle. The oleuropein content is around 31mg/ml which is ridiculously high. for its low ethanol percentage. If you really want to avoid minox and you're under a budget, then this will have to do. Be sure to use only 1 drop, no more.

Approx 130 servings of 20 drops. Approx. 25mg oleuropein per serving.
100/130 = 0.78ml per 20 drops.
25mg/0.78ml = 31mg/ml.

chemical im going to make a new topical with EGCG and Oleuropein in it. Gonna use 60/40 mix of ethanol/pg so if i make a 60ml solution being 40ml ethanol 20ml PG.

Oleuropein caps are = http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o03_s00
EGCG caps are = http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o00_s00

how many caps of each would you add?? just 1 im thinking as a trial or would you add more?

I'm also using CB-03-01 and setipirant/ neogenic, adenonise, castor oil 1ml orally and nizoral 3 times a week. So hoping this stacked with these will bring results ( cant use minox otherwise i would )

It seems you've beaten me to it. A purer ethanol vehicle with a bit of PG will most likely yield better results even if only increases the chances/probability of regrowth by a small amount. 80% ethanol, 20% PG. Thats what I would do. 1 cap of that oluropein you linked will give around 1.5mg/ml if you're going with 100ml. 1 cap of EGCG too. The purpose of the ethanol is to break down the barrier of the skin, and the PG supposedly helps the molecules stay dissolved long enough to slowly be absorbed by the skin. Beware of irritation and itching from PG, you want to avoid that.

I realise getting ethanol in the UK is not an easy task, you cant even get everclear here. I was going to suggest spirytus but you've already beaten me to it lol. Its quite steep but it'll last you ages at least. For those of you that can use minox, it works out cheaper to use the kirkland solution as its preformulated and available cheaply in the UK.

You're already on quite a stack Josh, do you think those 2mm of growth could be attributed to CB or any of the other treatments?

I've been using ~1.8mg/ml oleuropein with minox for a little over 20 days now and I'm seeing some remarkable things on the area I normally apply. I'm convinced the oleuropein is making the biggest difference. Since I'm on two weeks break I've been using 0.5ml of the minox solution in the morning, then again at 6pm, then at 10pm I finish off with the emu oil (+ minox + oleuropein solution) which prevents the itching from just using minox + oleuropein alone. I'm going to wait for the area to completely fill in before I post pics, which is very very soon at this rate! I also cant wait to add in EGCG!

[joshuk]

wow i have been applying about 1ml of that amazon tincture so thats way to much, im glad ive decided to make my own. not only that it stains the scalp brown so not ideal really to use during the day.

so how much Oleuropein per ml would be in 60ml of my custom solution, im guessing 1.8mg/ml as the same as a minox solution just without the minox...

i thought it might have been the Oleuropein that was getting my results becasue RU never really grew much for me so i did not think CB would either so unless CB is way better than RU or the Oleuropein tincture i was using had some effect. either way i will try using this custom mix then hopefully if a few of us start seeing some results we can work out a base formula.

[Chemical]

I'm using the same oleuropein caps you linked. 150mg per capsule. 150mg/100ml = 1.5mg, which is ideal. For 60ml, use half a cap. Twice a day should be more than enough, less is more in the case of oleuropein. Vellus hairs can grow quite long but you need to be looking out for actual stubble. Hair that feels prickly. I'd expect that around the 30 day mark.

I hope you're not using DMSO as a vehicle for any of your treatments? because DMSO isnt too friendly to hair according to some anecdotal reports. The CB or any AA for that matter wont regrow hair that quickly but the longer your hairs are free from Androgen, the higher the chance other treatments will work faster. CB should definitely potentiate the oleurpein and EGCG, but even without those two you should notice regrowth over time.

And 1ml is way too much. I should'nt have recommended it so I apologise.

[joshuk]

no not using dmso for anything, CB is mixed into neogenic, what im thinking is applying oleuropein/EGCG in the morning then CB/Neogenic in the evening, so if i want to only use the custom mix ole/egcg mix once a day can i just use 1 cap of each mixed in 60ml instead of half a cap used twice a day?? does this sound reasonable or would you still only use half a cap still for once a day application.

getting quite excited to see if this works to be honest, as you say if the CB is blocking my AR receptors from androgens its working as intended so my DKK1 should be lower correct? mix in EGCG/OLE on top of that.

plus the nizoral ( keto) and the castor oil (PGE2) neogenic is VEGF through hypoxia and the adenoise instead of minox ( obviously not as good) but mixed all together... this could get intresting

[Keeper]

Keep on going Chemical and joshuk !
Proud of you for trying stuff !
Excited what you have to report later on.
Yes we should be careful. Sometimes you are so much in that regrow can be an illusion ;-)

[Chemical]

1.5mg/ml per application - dont exceed 2mg ml of OL. EGCG can be increased at your discretion. Once a day application should be fine but my only concern is half life. OL and EGCG dont have particularly long half lives hence why I suggested twice a day, but you're better off using it only in the morning and the rest of the stuff in the evening for the sake of convenience - it shouldnt make a huge difference. For people solely using OL + minox + EGCG, twice a day is advised. I'm trying to find some info on CBs half life which would help with figuring out optimal timing. DKK1 shouldnt be concern at all with that stack, the adenosine, castor oil (topically right?) and EGCG will bypass DKK1 altogether. The main factors of concern now are TGF-Beta1 and time/timing. We need to find a way to ensure the good pathways are always active and the bad pathways are always turned off because the moment DHT/Test can bind to AR, they'll begin exerting their effects counteracting all the hard work. We want to minimise this as much as possible. Once AR stops releasing TGF-Beta1, the hairs should stop inhibiting the growth of nearby follicles so theres a very high probability of synergy between treatments if they dont end up activating detrimental pathways. Thats one of the reasons I'd encourage simple stacks instead of kitchen-sinking.

[Keeper]

maybe this can give some information:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=25700&STARTPAGE=4&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear

[jamesst11]

1.5mg/ml per application - dont exceed 2mg ml of OL. EGCG can be increased at your discretion. Once a day application should be fine but my only concern is half life. OL and EGCG dont have particularly long half lives hence why I suggested twice a day, but you're better off using it only in the morning and the rest of the stuff in the evening for the sake of convenience - it shouldnt make a huge difference. For people solely using OL + minox + EGCG, twice a day is advised. I'm trying to find some info on CBs half life which would help with figuring out optimal timing. DKK1 shouldnt be concern at all with that stack, the adenosine, castor oil (topically right?) and EGCG will bypass DKK1 altogether. The main factors of concern now are TGF-Beta1 and time/timing. We need to find a way to ensure the good pathways are always active and the bad pathways are always turned off because the moment DHT/Test can bind to AR, they'll begin exerting their effects counteracting all the hard work. We want to minimise this as much as possible. Once AR stops releasing TGF-Beta1, the hairs should stop inhibiting the growth of nearby follicles so theres a very high probability of synergy between treatments if they dont end up activating detrimental pathways. Thats one of the reasons I'd encourage simple stacks instead of kitchen-sinking.

do you recommend derma-rolling before application?

[iaskdumbquestions]

Hi thank you for this. I can't say I understand much of this but I would like to try this!

How do I mix pills with Minoxidil? I currently use Kirkland's brand, so do I just open it up and drop these pills inside?

Also, on page 1 you said:"
I'd also suggest people not to take finasteride systematically because the body will naturally increase testosterone to offset the negative feedback loop, and since finasteride only inhibits ~60%, that increase in testosterone will give 5AR additional substrate to convert into DHT, defeating the whole purpose of fin. I'd like to see people try this with RU as an augmentation, since theoretically there should be less DKK1 as a result of impaired AR signalling. "

Based on that would you also suggest people not use Seti?

[iaskdumbquestions]

edit: double post

[Keeper]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...ilpage_o02_s00
I've been using ~1.8mg/ml oleuropein with minox for a little over 20 days now and I'm seeing some remarkable things on the area I normally apply. I'm convinced the oleuropein is making the biggest difference. Since I'm on two weeks break I've been using 0.5ml of the minox solution in the morning, then again at 6pm, then at 10pm I finish off with the emu oil (+ minox + oleuropein solution) which prevents the itching from just using minox + oleuropein alone. I'm going to wait for the area to completely fill in before I post pics, which is very very soon at this rate! I also cant wait to add in EGCG!

Hey Chemical,
- Before your break you were using minox + oleuropein how often and for how long (6 weeks?)
- How long were you using Minox before you started also using oleuropein?
- So now you use 3x 0.5 ml Minox Solution (just normal minox or is it already a combined solution with sth else?) and in the evening you also use emu oil (I like the combination for preventing itching) and oleuropein solution
- If you have been 2 weeks off Minox, you should probably get the "payback" in at least 1 month for not applying it or? I think the effect of everything you do to hair comes after around 2 months or later (like in most treatments) like people who stop minox losing the extra hair after around 2 months. What do you think about it? Do you think you can stabilize it?


Hope I didnt understand sth wrong

[Chemical]

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...VIEWTMP=Linear

The guy using minox and extra virgin olive oil seems to have had quite a bit of thickening:

July 17th
August 2nd
September 19th

But you can see in the first picture he already had follicles - albeit that were miniaturising, so the minox probably rescued them and thickened them up. The OL content in oil isnt very high but it may have played a part. Its hard to tell.

do you recommend derma-rolling before application?

No need. The ethanol will reduce the skins barrier function.

How do I mix pills with Minoxidil? I currently use Kirkland's brand, so do I just open it up and drop these pills inside?
Would you also suggest people not use Seti?

Just drop the powder in and shake until you cant see anymore powder. You might want to make a small test sample of around 30ml just in case I make changes to the protocol or something comes up. Be sure to stay under 2mg/ml of oleuropein - ideally 1.5mg/ml. If you want to use EGCG start off with 1 cap, and you can increase later once I've had time to play around with doses.

If you have been 2 weeks off Minox, you should probably get the "payback" in at least 1 month for not applying it or? I think the effect of everything you do to hair comes after around 2 months or later (like in most treatments) like people who stop minox losing the extra hair after around 2 months. What do you think about it? Do you think you can stabilize it?
Hope I didnt understand sth wrong

I started using Minox, Emu oil, and Keto cream around April this year. I applied these three separately (no mixing) most days at night, but was regular with keto cream twice a day. No drastic regrowth and no effect on shedding either.

Then in late August I bought Oleuropein and saw palmetto which I mixed with emu oil and minox - we'll call this emox.

I used emox at night everyday, and the plain minox followed by keto cream in the morrning for 6 weeks straight and noticed some regrowth in peripheral regions marked green and some more vellus hairs in dotted black areas:



I apply in the region circled blue an tilt my head to the left to let it reach the other side. I saw some thickening of existing terminal hairs at the center of my hairline but most of the regrowth and significant thickening was were the emox was reaching in small amounts. This led me to believe oleuropein had a biphasic effect.

As I kept increasing the concentration of OL and Saw Palmetto. I wasnt seeing much of a difference and it might have made things worse because it was forming a very thick residue on my scalp. In late October I stopped using it during the weekdays because I was so busy with work, but I was using it heavily on the weekends. My plain minox had run out by Nov.

Unfortuneately the emox was becoming a pain to remove since I had to shampoo it out every morning so around November 20th I stopped completely. I realised I was losing alot of density in the crown area and the emox wasnt doing anything. I started using miconazole and ketoconazole twice a day everyday, thats when I noticed some hairs thickening in the blue region. This could have been due to OL gradually reaching a lower concentration over the course of its half life? Or my scalp had finally recovered from excessive shampooing? - I dont know. I saw that the left side had receded quite a bit and the follicles were miniaturising which got me kind of worried. You are right in that I did pay the price for not using the emox properly.

Around 10th December, I made a new batch of emox, using no Saw palmetto, and only two caps of OL. I also added a tiny amount of OL to plain minox - we'll call this mxol.

And I've also got some plain Emu oil thats not mixed with anything.

I use the mxol more often, twice a day and wait for it to dry up. Since I'm on break I use the plain emu oil 2-3 hrs after mxol because I noticed my scalp becomes very itchy if I dont use it. At night I use the emox 2-3 hrs after mxol. I use the mico too if I remember. The shedding is nonexistant now and frontal density is coming back, ALOT faster than my initial trial with emox + minox. My preconception that Emu Oil was suitable vehicle was incorrect, it doesnt help at all with penetration. The ethanol/PG is the more effective vehicle. I should probably make a wiki of all the updated knowledge and use this thread as more of a protocol/log discussion place, it would make things a bit more organised.

[SriHanuman]

Yes it should be fine, but before you go ahead, which brand of EGCG are you using? I'd recommend teavigo since you can get away with a lower concentration of the extract and get the raw EGCG that you actually need. I'm ot sure how the other polyphenols affect, so for now we'll stick to pure EGCG as used in the study. EGCG also has a dose dependent effect so start off with 1 capsule, then see if it leaves a residue after applying. If not, add another. Rub the skin softly to see if you get any residue, even if its just a little, dont add anymore to the solution. Also what concentration of ethanol are you using?

I will be using:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ethanolic-Tincture-Concentrate-Oleuropein-Glycerine/dp/B00B2U9MW4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1451314576&sr=8-1&keywords=olive+leaf+tincture

And yes will order teavigo. But fistly I shall try only this tincture and see what happens in one to two months.