Combatting RU58841 side effects

[Illusion]

So I've been taking RU for the past few days, hoping that it wouldn't give me side effects whereas fin did. I had read quite a lot of posts claiming that RU did go systematic but because of its shorter half life, sides would be less of an problem as they would last less longer than fin. I was hoping though that RU wouldn't go systematic and thus wouldn't give me sides. Yeah, I had pretty high hopes.

I have only taken RU for a couple of days now but gyno already starts to develop. I'm also feeling some other things since I started RU but I'm willing to discard every side effect that only has the slightest chance to be caused by a paranoid mind. Gyno, however, is one of the few sides that I absolutely can't imagine: I can't grow tits by using my mind.


This brings me to the following question: because of RU's MoA (binding locally to receptors in the scalp so DHT won't, if I understand this correctly) will it matter a lot how much DHT there will be in my body as a whole? I have a very low level of knowledge regarding this concept, but I was thinking something along the lines of boosting my DHT levels significantly as it wouldn't matter for hair loss anyway as long as I would be using RU?

Or maybe there's another way to combat RU sides? Surely because of this MoA compared to the MoA of fin/dut there are going to be some ways to reduce sides? I would lower the dose, but I'm already on a pretty low dose (concentration of 2,5% , 50mg/2ml). If I can't even take RU for MPB, I practically ran out of AA's to try and my battle against hair loss will become a pretty dark one.

There is some great knowledge in this subforum and I was wondering if anybody had an idea of what to do... Any comments/insights would be greatly aprecciated!

[lmg7]

there is this guy who claims that he efficiently avoided sides by taking st john wort and makes bathces with 50% ethanol, 25% glycerin and 25% water http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/m...ar&#lastunread i tried to contact him but he didnt response

[LMS]

Sides with RU are pretty common, I had them.

If you want you could try using KB solution instead of the more typical Eth/PH vehicle. KB was successful in greatly reducing sides for me, unfortunately also efficacy.

[Boldy]

there is this guy who claims that he efficiently avoided sides by taking st john wort and makes bathces with 50% ethanol, 25% glycerin and 25% water www.***.com i tried to contact him but he didnt response

He sorry man, I'm not very active at that forum.


to answer your question:

Originally posted by: Boldy

I never thought i was able to tolerate ru because i tried it in the past and got heavy sides, but that is not unusual for me, im very sensitive and wasn't able to bare any anti androgen.



Couple past months i have been reading about why some people have multiple drug tolerance, and why others are too sensitive. this is a pretty complex topic, I will make a topic about it soon, but what you have to know is



P450 liver enzymes and abc transporters (eg glycoproteines) p-glycoproteine that has a very big role in blood brain barrier, usually allows steroid structures to enter, while it sees other drugs like ru as xenobiotics(foreign substance). if you have a good functioning body, with normal levels p450 enzymes and ABC transporters (p glycoproteine and others), there is less chance to get sides . St johns wort helps in enhancing cyp-3a4 and p glycoproteine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...icum_perforatum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochrome_P450

this is one of the reasons why some people don't react to chemo therapy for example, they can have over active abc transporters.



so in short you wan't any xenobiotic to stay too long in your system.



here are some tricks that I use to minimize / almost completely avoid sides.

-so number one measure is using the right vehicle. In my case it is 50% ethanol, 25% glycerin and 25% water.

-second is enhancing abc transporters + P450 liver enzymes that are possible for metabolizing a wide varity of drugs (st johns wort does this).

- if you still experience for example bit of sexual side effects, I noticed that trans-resveratrol is doing a good job in restoring that.

- avoiding too dry scalp which is induced by ru here, by using 3-4 times a week topical coconut oil, this reduce the chance that the drug goes too fast systematic.



Im now 5-6 weeks on ru and I have to say that my shedding is stopped, and maybe slightly thicker appearing hair, but too early to draw a good conclusion. I ordered ghkcu + ahk cu and will order some neogenic soon. I hope that the combo with ru will give me some more density behind the HT hairline. I would be very happy if I can just halt hairloss now and would see extra coverage as a bonus. I don't think that it is realistic to expect more than couple percent improvement wit current approaches.


so boldy is that for real?you mange to avoid, maybe eliminate the sides from ru wow this is great!! can you please tell me, do you use only st johns wort?where do you buy it an how you use it,oral or topical?....as far as ru concerned ,how much mg/ml do you use ?isnt water bad for batching...sorry for all these questions but i just ordered ru an im afraid of sides

1. About 90% of the sides I can eliminate this way yes. I notice very dry skin if i go over 2.5% ru, and brain-fog/ sexual sides when i don't take the st johns.

the vehicle is about 50% ethanol, 25% glycerin, 25%water, however im experimenting with different vehicles because 25% glycerin make the hair too greasy. Im still playing with the dose though, the amount of st johns, to see what i can and can not handle. (usually i apply between 1 and 3 ml depending on my hair length). it is basically trial and error.
st johns I take orally currently about 8-9 * 300 mg a day.(over dose).


I will make a log soon if you guys wan't with all details about my regime? Currently it is ru + st + topical vitamin c + topical coconut oil.

about my hair status i can be very short, I did a ht in may at dr mwamba (890 grafts), however the hairline kept getting thinner behind the ht, starting ru (for the 3d or 4th time) was my last desperate hope actually to maintain. it is causing maintenance + some minor thickening at least in the mirror. with minimal sides now (maybe 10% less libido and sometimes dry skin with the 2.5%).


Boldy

[Illusion]

Wow, very interesting! So basically you're doing 3 things: a) trying to get an absorption that is high enough yet not too high by mixing your ru with water, ethanol and glycerine and by making sure your scalp is not too dry before application, b) taking st johns to get the ru out of your system asap and c) not doing a very high dosage.
I've got a couple of questions about the st johns. At what dosage did you start in the beginning? Did you notice an effect immedeately? Also, Ive did some research to st johns... Isnt it a bit dangerous to be taking it longterm, esp at the high dosage you're taking it?

It's really amazing for me to see someone who experienced pretty bad sides on ru or on any AA for that matters and has been able to beat the side effects. I'm definitely going to try the st johns out... Just looked it up and it is not expensive

He sorry man, I'm not very active at that forum.


to answer your question:



1. About 90% of the sides I can eliminate this way yes. I notice very dry skin if i go over 2.5% ru, and brain-fog/ sexual sides when i don't take the st johns.

the vehicle is about 50% ethanol, 25% glycerin, 25%water, however im experimenting with different vehicles because 25% glycerin make the hair too greasy. Im still playing with the dose though, the amount of st johns, to see what i can and can not handle. (usually i apply between 1 and 3 ml depending on my hair length). it is basically trial and error.
st johns I take orally currently about 8-9 * 300 mg a day.(over dose).


I will make a log soon if you guys wan't with all details about my regime? Currently it is ru + st + topical vitamin c + topical coconut oil.

about my hair status i can be very short, I did a ht in may at dr mwamba (890 grafts), however the hairline kept getting thinner behind the ht, starting ru (for the 3d or 4th time) was my last desperate hope actually to maintain. it is causing maintenance + some minor thickening at least in the mirror. with minimal sides now (maybe 10% less libido and sometimes dry skin with the 2.5%).


Boldy

[abrorcasanova]

He sorry man, I'm not very active at that forum.


to answer your question:



1. About 90% of the sides I can eliminate this way yes. I notice very dry skin if i go over 2.5% ru, and brain-fog/ sexual sides when i don't take the st johns.

the vehicle is about 50% ethanol, 25% glycerin, 25%water, however im experimenting with different vehicles because 25% glycerin make the hair too greasy. Im still playing with the dose though, the amount of st johns, to see what i can and can not handle. (usually i apply between 1 and 3 ml depending on my hair length). it is basically trial and error.
st johns I take orally currently about 8-9 * 300 mg a day.(over dose).


I will make a log soon if you guys wan't with all details about my regime? Currently it is ru + st + topical vitamin c + topical coconut oil.

about my hair status i can be very short, I did a ht in may at dr mwamba (890 grafts), however the hairline kept getting thinner behind the ht, starting ru (for the 3d or 4th time) was my last desperate hope actually to maintain. it is causing maintenance + some minor thickening at least in the mirror. with minimal sides now (maybe 10% less libido and sometimes dry skin with the 2.5%).


Boldy

It would be awesome if you could make a detailed log, it would be very informative for us!

[Boldy]

alright, no problem! I will find some time in the next days/ weeks

[Illusion]

Boldy, can you please tell me with what dose of st john's you started? Also, when did you first noticed results of the st john reducing your RU sides?

[lmg7]

nice to hear from you again boldy....im waiting for detailed information
i have a lot of questions to ask you,your regime seems very promising

[charlie76761]

V interesting and informative - i seem to be hyper-sensitive to RU after being Dut and Fin for 8 odd years - much thanks. Using 10mg RU w Stemoxydine and still feeling it - will give SJW a shot

I've got a few questions for you Boldy if you wouldnt mind

a) I read that SJW has the effect of increasing 5-HT / serotonin levels in the central nervous system (CNS), so do you think it is also possible that RU give us foggyness and general slowness due to suppression of 5-HT but SJW brings these levels back up to feel normal again (as well transporting and metabolising drugs from the body)?

b) Thinking about the transporting and metabolising drugs out of the body, would SJW be indiscriminate when it comes to removing from blood plasma in body or scalp thus would reduce effectiveness of RU (or once RU has bound to follicle receptor, can it not remove... but then RU bonding to other receptors in the body is causing sides in the first place so how would SJW reduce this w/o having same reduce effect of RU in the scalp ?)

c) How long would it take before would feel the effect of SJW?

Thanks Boldy

[Dimoxynil]

Do you think that this St Johns product could also help with finasteride sides ?

[Pate]

You can't get gyno in two days. It takes weeks to months to see any effect.

I hate to say it, but some of you guys are getting placebo sides for sure IMO. Looking at your chest knowing you've been taking RU naturally increases your perception that your chest is changing, but it's really not. It's no different from when we sometimes get guys in here saying "I started XYZ treatment four days ago and my hair already looks thicker" - it's impossible.

If you seriously think you are, take photos, use RU for 1 month, take more photos, then compare. If you don't see any difference, you can continue for another month.

It's different if you're getting pain etc, or erectile problems, because those can be real or placebo after two days - but for gyno, don't just rely on perception in the mirror.

I'm willing to bet that I could give some of you guys a mix of PG and ethanol with nothing in it, tell you it's RU, and you'd be reporting sides from it including gyno.

I'm definitely not saying sides aren't real, especially for fin. But some of the so-called sides that are reported here are just not possible in the timeframe. I hate to think some of you are losing hair due to placebo sides.

[Illusion]

You can't get gyno in two days. It takes weeks to months to see any effect.

I hate to say it, but some of you guys are getting placebo sides for sure IMO. Looking at your chest knowing you've been taking RU naturally increases your perception that your chest is changing, but it's really not. It's no different from when we sometimes get guys in here saying "I started XYZ treatment four days ago and my hair already looks thicker" - it's impossible.

If you seriously think you are, take photos, use RU for 1 month, take more photos, then compare. If you don't see any difference, you can continue for another month.

It's different if you're getting pain etc, or erectile problems, because those can be real or placebo after two days - but for gyno, don't just rely on perception in the mirror.

I'm willing to bet that I could give some of you guys a mix of PG and ethanol with nothing in it, tell you it's RU, and you'd be reporting sides from it including gyno.

I'm definitely not saying sides aren't real, especially for fin. But some of the so-called sides that are reported here are just not possible in the timeframe. I hate to think some of you are losing hair due to placebo sides.

I'm not seeing any gyno, just feeling a peanut sized lump under my right nipple whereas it used to be flat. Also I get some weird feelings in my right nipple sometimes, but as I said before, I'm willing to discard any feelings (because like you said, the placebo-effect can be strong) but things that are actually visible or things I'm able to feel from the outside (the lump), are a different story imo. You say that gyno can't develop in two days but I take it you're talking about full-blown gyno. I agree that's rather unlikely to happen but you can spot gyno before that stage, as you don't suddenly wake up with huge bitch-tits.

But I agree with the things you said about the placebo effect of drugs. Again, that's why I stated in my first post that I'm willing to discard pretty much everything except for visible things or things I can feel from the outside.

[Trouse5858]

What happens when you get gyno? I'm a week into RU but I'm wary of this. Will it go away on its own or would it require medication to subside??

[Illusion]

What happens when you get gyno? I'm a week into RU but I'm wary of this. Will it go away on its own or would it require medication to subside??

I started to develop gyno because of fin. When I quit fin after approx two weeks, the lump under my nipple slowly went away. However, if you start to develop gyno you need to do something against it rather quickly. If the lump under your nipple stays there or grows for too long, it will become permanent and surgery will be the only option. You'd have to look up after how long of a period this exactly is.

If you stop on time, your gyno will slowly go away. There are little things you can do against gyno as far as I know. You can use AI (aromatase inhibitors) that basically inhibit estrogen, which will probably help pretty good against beginning gyno. However, it's pretty bad for your health to use these AI's for a long time and I'm assuming you're looking for a solution to a) stop gyno, b) is usable for a long time without being bad for you and c) is usable along with your current treatment for hair loss (i.e. the two don't compromise eachother). Unfortunately, I don't know of such method.

You can try to use DHT-cream but that stuff is pretty expensive (http://www.dhtcream.com/buy-dht-cream/) and I'm not sure if it's actually scientifically proven to work.

However, gyno is not that common as a side effect so just relax. If you do feel like you're developping gyno, go to your GP first before you do anything against it. She'll determine if it's actually gyno or not.If it is gyno, your options are pretty limited:

1) You lower your dosage to a point where you're not having issues with gyno anymore
2) You just ignore the gyno and continue treatment.
3) You try the DHT-cream route (or the AI route though that's not a recommended one in the long run I believe)

Keep in mind that if you have surgery for gyno (do this with a good plastic surgeon and not a regular surgeon as the results will be less good cosmetically-wise) and you start with an AA again after that, it will probably develop again if you're sensitive to gyno.