We have a vehicle for CB-03-01: VERSAPRO

[hellouser]

Maybe a group buy would be more affordable if there is enough people interested. Im lookin to try it and am from Ontario, Canada.

Searched PHG for CB-03=01 no results ?

CB minus 3 does not equal 1.

[Justinian]

Fcking no hell lol broscience, we wish it was like that. Evidence atm points out it is less potent than RU-58841. You refer to this study; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15646372



This is from the study, now note cyproterone acetate is just a little bit more active than cb-03-01 in the hamster flank organ test. I have a study about RU-58841 on hamster flank organ test also I'll dig it up later if you are interested but I'm sure it was more potent than these figures. Secondly the following is a statement about RU58841;




Meaning RU-58841 is likely stronger than than cyproterone acetate and thus likely stronger than CB-03-01.

Also be aware that the cb-03-01 comparison to finasteride in this test is hilarious. They are comparing a 5ar2 inhibitor with a anti-androgen. This obviously will say nothing about it translating for AGA, keep that in mind.

Now guys, think about it. Why was the vehicle ever a problem? Wouldn't it be logical for it that we need a higher concentration for it being effective?

If RU-58841 and cyproterone acetate outperform cb-03-01 then why would cb-03-01 work at a dosage of 1-2%, do you see RU-58841 or cyproterone acetate working that good at such a dosage? I don't think so.

That is what the problem ever was, cosmo just released a new patent in 2014, where they also state the pharmaceutical composition of the cream, and it is nothing special.

The vehicle was never a problem, the concentration was. If you think otherwise come up with reasoning, or I would like to hear it from desmond. I have spoken to chemists and there is literally no reason to think the vehicle was a problem ever.

And yes 5% is going to be expensive as hell I guess.

This is what people reference http://m.cosmopharma.com/news/press/...010-10-06.aspx

CB 1% is about the same as 5%, and both outperform cyproterone acetate. The vehicle used in this study was iontrophesis.

[ank1]

@Swooping

Thanks for the detailed discussion. Sounds quite reasonable.

I guess I heard that the reason RU was withdrawn from the market in Japan was because of its stability and lower effectiveness compared to CB.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong)

But if you are right, it may be that the pharmas are trying to go for more stability in the expense of efficiency since it would be more successful in the market which makes sense.

In this case, it might me better for us to go for RU since the grey market price for the right dose would be cheaper for RU.

Of course, the situation would all change if the pharmas start providing CB at a reasonable price which would certainly be lower than that of the grey market.

I guess I'll have to dig more into the RU and CB studies myself and try not to be too enthusiastic about CB at the moment.


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@Justinian

Thanks for the post. If the cream delivery shows similar efficiency compared to iontrophesis, CB would be better then.

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

But isn't iontrophesis supposed to be a stronger way of delivering the drug?

I guess it has a lot to do with its electrostatic property and lipophilicity, size etc.

Any reason cream delivery should be better?

I guess nobody would be able to give a solid answer since we do not have any experimental data

but I would appreciate your opinions.

Maybe some people with expertise in the field can give us a brief idea.



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@Hellhouser,

is there any reason you are going for CB instead of RU btw?

I remember you posting pics of yourself having grown quite a lot of hair on top using RU.

What has changed?

[Swooping]

This is what people reference http://m.cosmopharma.com/news/press/...010-10-06.aspx

CB 1% is about the same as 5%, and both outperform cyproterone acetate. The vehicle used in this study was iontrophesis.

Firstly as I said this is done by cosmo themself, and the set-up of the study is plain horrible. And at 1% it isn't much better than cyproterone acetate anyway in this table. But let's delve deeper and I'll give you more reasons why this is utter bullshit misleading shit.

The study evaluated the efficacy of CB-03-01 in 40 men with androgenetic alopecia grade 1-4 according to the Hamilton scale, and in 30 post-menopausal women with androgenetic alopecia grade 1 according to the Ludwig scale. Prior to treatment, follicle density, hair thickness, a pull test, and sebum production were measured. All subjects were then given 5 treatments (in sessions once or twice a week) of either 1% CB-03-01, 5% CB-03-01, 1% ciproterone-acetate or 1% 17alpha-estradiol. Each volunteer was then re-analyzed one week and one month after the last treatment.

Look androgenetic is a polygenic inheritance meaning that people react differently to treatments. People with lower norwood scale seem to react better to treatments than people who are far gone, and women react differently too. There are multiple factors. You see this all the time even with the current treatments where some people react awesome to treatments but some not so awesome.

You really think N= 70 gives a good indication of the effectiveness of a treatment in this setup? Think, again. Btw the N= would be even lower for each compound making it even less reliable.

You don't even know the group setups. For example where the women where or the different norwood scales were assigned too.

[Swooping]

@Swooping

Thanks for the detailed discussion. Sounds quite reasonable.

I guess I heard that the reason RU was withdrawn from the market in Japan was because of its stability and lower effectiveness compared to CB.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong)

But if you are right, it may be that the pharmas are trying to go for more stability in the expense of efficiency since it would be more successful in the market which makes sense.

In this case, it might me better for us to go for RU since the grey market price for the right dose would be cheaper for RU.

Of course, the situation would all change if the pharmas start providing CB at a reasonable price which would certainly be lower than that of the grey market.

I guess I'll have to dig more into the RU and CB studies myself and try not to be too enthusiastic about CB at the moment.

No problem man. Btw I don't want to be negative here, I just think that going in circles will only lead to disappointment in people. Doesn't make sense that the vehicle ever was a problem in cb-03-01, the concentration was %. So I really wouldn't be too hyped, but I guess we will find out soon!

About RU-58841 I have my theory about it, check my post history. Somewhere I talked about the history of it all. I just know that it works very good and many people use it. I can't know the real reason though!

[ank1]

I'll wait and see how people do with CB+Versapro too. I just hope people get great results.

Reading your posts makes me more curious about the history! I'll check your RU post. Thanks

[Justinian]

Firstly as I said this is done by cosmo themself, and the set-up of the study is plain horrible. And at 1% it isn't much better than cyproterone acetate anyway in this table. But let's delve deeper and I'll give you more reasons why this is utter bullshit misleading shit.



Look androgenetic is a polygenic inheritance meaning that people react differently to treatments. People with lower norwood scale seem to react better to treatments than people who are far gone, and women react differently too. There are multiple factors. You see this all the time even with the current treatments where some people react awesome to treatments but some not so awesome.

You really think N= 70 gives a good indication of the effectiveness of a treatment in this setup? Think, again. Btw the N= would be even lower for each compound making it even less reliable.

You don't even know the group setups. For example where the women where or the different norwood scales were assigned too.

Good points. There definitely should be more participants given how many groups they are divided into, and adding in women.

I assume they are divided evenly, though. I believe trials for FDA approval will be reviewed for stuff like deliberately misrepresenting the study groups.

We will definitely know a lot more after the phase 2 trial finishes next year.

[sdsurfin]

Spot on. Ironically CB-03-01 is way more experimental than RU-58841. The literature on it is incredibly scarce. Secondly, the vehicle was never a problem. The liphoplicity of CB-03-01 is even better than RU and has a lower molecular weight. There is no hypothetical reason to suggest it wouldn't work with a normal vehicle. The guys who used it at 5% said it was doing it's job while the guys who went with 2% and under never had real results.

Also keep in mind that this is a steroidal anti-androgen. They affect the cardiovascular system long-term if it goes systematic (cyproterone acetate). It has been proposed as not going systematic but this is only proven in a hamster flank organ test.

Don't get hyped up by press releases especially from companies guys. You need regulated studies or either studies which are not affiliated with the company itself. Do you know how often they sugarcoat results or even influence them? To create attention and attract investors? . I wouldn't even be surprised if the results from this cream are way overthrown, you see it all the time. Be realistic and good luck.

Yeah the idea of the vehicle being a problem seems like nonsense to me. PG and ethanol should carry CB fine, but the concentration of this stuff is much more important. also, just because there were no short term sides noted with iontophoresis does not mean that putting large concentrations of it through your skin with a vehicle will definitely not have sides. steroidal compounds are bound to do something. Either way I hope that cosmo gets this to market at a fair price if it works, and that it'll be a better alternative to finasteride. I highly highly doubt that people will get results if they didn't get them with the last vehicle, in my mind there's no way that was the problem. The stuff might just not work the way it did with iontophoresis, or the concentrations are way too low. will be interesting to see. Cellular therapies are where it's at, I'm not too excited about this androgen related stuff.

[Justinian]

I'm in FL (USA) if anyone is interested in a group buy as well.

What part of Florida?

[StayThick]

What part of Florida?

South Florida (Ft. Lauderdale)

[deuce]

Yeah the idea of the vehicle being a problem seems like nonsense to me. PG and ethanol should carry CB fine, but the concentration of this stuff is much more important. also, just because there were no short term sides noted with iontophoresis does not mean that putting large concentrations of it through your skin with a vehicle will definitely not have sides. steroidal compounds are bound to do something. Either way I hope that cosmo gets this to market at a fair price if it works, and that it'll be a better alternative to finasteride. I highly highly doubt that people will get results if they didn't get them with the last vehicle, in my mind there's no way that was the problem. The stuff might just not work the way it did with iontophoresis, or the concentrations are way too low. will be interesting to see. Cellular therapies are where it's at, I'm not too excited about this androgen related stuff.

Great with FIN you lose your sex drive, and with this it could damage your cardiovascular system which may creep up on you with you not even knowing? Who knows? I think we should get a medical expert on this. Maybe any doctors that come to this site?

[Justinian]

South Florida (Ft. Lauderdale)

Oh, I'm in Orlando. A little too far away.

[lifelonglearning]

All this debate whether its going to work or not.. only one way to find out . Just ordered versapro cream now i need me some cb. Can someone send me a invite to PHG

[wesleybelgium]

i followed the hype train too with regret. Had to find the hard way. We purchased tested cb 3 years ago. With 70 other members. It worked for no one.

There is nothing wrong with current vehicles. Ethanol is super penetration enhancer to make it to the root the dermal papilla.

Used to do androgenic steroids in the past. When I replaced ru for cb I could tell allot sebum and shedding was going on while on steroids. it is big signs of aga.

Dut + 3% cb was definitely nto as strong as dut + 5% Ru.

Dut + RU avoided sebum + hairloss while on steroids. As no other combo.

Cb definitely overhyped on paper for investors. would compare its effect to spironolactone but with sideffects. Me and other users reported stabbing chest pains. Angina pectoris like sides effects. cb will never hit market with such dangerous sides once they make in.


Imo best combination combi is RU + minox or ru + minox + dutas.

I will make a log soon for my hair status!

[sdsurfin]

i followed the hype train too with regret. Had to find the hard way. We purchased tested cb 3 years ago. With 70 other members. It worked for no one.

There is nothing wrong with current vehicles. Ethanol is super penetration enhancer to make it to the root the dermal papilla.

Used to do androgenic steroids in the past. When I replaced ru for cb I could tell allot sebum and shedding was going on while on steroids. it is big signs of aga.

Dut + 3% cb was definitely nto as strong as dut + 5% Ru.


Dut + RU avoided sebum + hairloss while on steroids. As no other combo.

Cb definitely overhyped on paper for investors. would compare its effect to spironolactone but with sideffects. Me and other users reported stabbing chest pains. Angina pectoris like sides effects. cb will never hit market with such dangerous sides once they make in.


Imo best combination combi is RU + minox or ru + minox + dutas.

I will make a log soon for my hair status!

I doubt CB is much good if so many people have tested it and gotten no results. If it was a miracle drug it would have done at least something. The vehicle stuff is nonsense (although I'd like to hear desmond reason as to why older vehicles didn't work)

On the other hand, it's hard to take anyones word on side effects like chest pains (which are often anxiety related too) when they are taking steroids. Clearly you were putting a lot of shit in your body at the same time (including dutasteride), so any objective reading of side effects seems impossible. I really don't think anyone is going to tackle hair loss chemically- drugs will all have sides and the chain of events that creates hair loss is very complex and very tied to a lot of crucial systems in the body. The future is hair regeneration with stem cells. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for replicel not to be a total wash, and meanwhile maybe try topical fin. curious to see what people experience with CB but too expensive for now.