Pilox Update

[brunobald]

OK dude, now I don't understand your logic

You accept Yoram lied to you, at a time where you blindly followed, to the point of claiming that "the results are real, and nothing short of amazing".

Now you claim that "I admit, if there is any improvement, it's not significant." and still support the guy?

No one "prematurely chased Yoram off". The guy lied to us and he ran when he was confronted. When was the time to chase him away according to you? Until several people paid for a snake oil?

The problem is that, you prematurely whitekighted Yoram. If it wasn't for people like you, we would have probably uncovered way more quickly

Seriously dude, you need to stop investing emotionally into whatever snake oil salesman you encounter.

If you want accountability in hair loss forums, let Pilox go and play silent for a while. You attitude is poisonous for the community.
You should also re-read the crap you posted about this fraud so it doesn't happen again

Wow so much aggresion and self righteousness over something you really know nothing about. We all know very little about this device and time will tell if it is legit or not and not some internet forum white noise.

[bigentries]

OK dude, now I don't understand your logic

You accept Yoram lied to you, at a time where you blindly followed, to the point of claiming that "the results are real, and nothing short of amazing".

Now you claim that "I admit, if there is any improvement, it's not significant." and still support the guy?

No one "prematurely chased Yoram off". The guy lied to us and he ran when he was confronted. When was the time to chase him away according to you? Until several people paid for a snake oil?

The problem is that, you prematurely whitekighted Yoram. If it wasn't for people like you, we would have probably uncovered way more quickly

Seriously dude, you need to stop investing emotionally into whatever snake oil salesman you encounter.

If you want accountability in hair loss forums, let Pilox go and play silent for a while. You attitude is poisonous for the community.
You should also re-read the crap you posted about this fraud so it doesn't happen again

[NeedHairASAP]

I'm not really sure what you're attacking me for... arashi was kind of rude. He admitted it before. He was kicked off the forum... not by me, but by popular demand. Does it make Arashi a loser? No. Does it make him wrong? No. Does it mean he may have been more incendiary than was needed at that moment? Yes. Is it the end of the world? No. Would we have been better off without chasing Yoram off the forum? I'm would lean towards yes. Is it scary you took the time to 1. comb my posts and 2. distort them to fit your purpose? Yes.

as for your selectively bolded "quotations"....

1. I went to gho and it went well for me.... I don't know what to tell you. I'm not the only person who went there and was satisfied. I didn't measure regrowth so I can't attest to that. I saw arashi's results and I can see how he isn't happy. I'm not really sure what all of this has to do with Pilox... but I stand by the statement that if pilox worked, I'd rather buy that for 500 than go back to gho.... not really sure what is so strange about saying that? The first of a number of disingenuously chosen quotations.

2. Please tell me what it is yoram was suppose to tell you guys that he didnt? We know exactly how it, supposedly, worked... zinc, copper, ion machine... what more is he suppose to tell you guys? How zinc and copper were suppose to help? There is literature on this. How iontophersis works as a vehicle? There is literature on this. What more was he suppose to say? The next step would be to give you the blueprint lol.... again, I stand by this statement.

4. There is some interesting third party science behind it... lots of papers on zinc and on copper ions and iontophersis is agreed to be one of the top vehicles... so what is wrong with this statement? Nowhere in this statement do I claim "therefor pilox is definitely real"... all I say is it's based on some plausible science... this is true no? Again, disingenuously quoting me... we're seeing a pattern from you now..

5. The pictures we saw from the original "leak" were some of the best quality looking photos.... I'm not sure what is so wrong about that statement. If they weren't great photos, why did the forums explode with interest about the product? This statement has nothing to do with them being real... but you disingenuously portray it that way... again.

6. this is an if, then statement-- ie. IF pilox is real, yoram is the greatest. I don't know who wouldn't agree with this. Obviously you forgot to bold the "if" portion of my statement, which is more evidence you're disingenuous in your arguments, or are illogical in your thinking.

7. I dont know about the macro pictures. I guess those were falsified? I didn't think there was a consensus on this but you make it sound like there was. I'll assume you're correct. In which case, these statements of mine were incorrect... okay?

all in all, I am not sure why I'm being harassed about a very reasonable statement: "you guys prematurely chased Yoram off the forums"

[bigentries]

Here are some words of wisdom from OP about Yoram

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/14832-piloxll-new-israeli-method-combines-wounding-zi-cu-ions-to-destroy-dht-in-the-scalp?p=163794&highlight=#post163794

"The macro pictures match, what do you have to say about that? You should be happy, not throwing a fit because you made a mistake."

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/14832-piloxll-new-israeli-method-combines-wounding-zi-cu-ions-to-destroy-dht-in-the-scalp?p=163793&highlight=#post163793

the pics vraf posted have labeled hairs.. the two MACRO images are DEFINITELY the same area....... which means the results are real, and nothing short of amazing.

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/14832-piloxll-new-israeli-method-combines-wounding-zi-cu-ions-to-destroy-dht-in-the-scalp?p=163031&highlight=#post163031

"1. Im still about Gho but I'd gladly pass on another 10k HST for $500 pilox."

"3. I'm a little confused as to what you guys want yoram to provide you right this second.....he has pictures, third-party science behind it, he's releasing it within 8 months.... i mean...what do you want? is he suppose to give you his blueprints 6 months before the launch? and if he doesn't he's a fraud?"

"4. You guys have literally nothing to point at... you think it's weird that the book got leaked and you think it's weird he is on a russian site.... otherwise, he has some of the best quality pictures we've ever seen and some extremely interesting science behind the idea."

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/14832-piloxll-new-israeli-method-combines-wounding-zi-cu-ions-to-destroy-dht-in-the-scalp?p=162270&highlight=#post162270

"Yoram has been very open. Somebody has brought the website up. We'll see what he has to say. Until then......"
Yoram ran away after this...

https://www.baldtruthtalk.com/threads/14832-piloxll-new-israeli-method-combines-wounding-zi-cu-ions-to-destroy-dht-in-the-scalp?p=161013&highlight=#post161013

"Yoram, the man who, if results are true, is the greatest man to ever walk planet earth. Bar maybe 20-50 other people...."

Someone should put the quote from vraf about the "billion dollar device" and the one where he laughed at the skeptics claiming they will remain bald while he was going to have some amazing results

[bigentries]

What about acupuncture? It is considered a pseudo-science

Arashi didn't insult anyone

I don't remember any of Arashi's post being edited or deleted. You and many of Yoram's whiteknghts had many posts edited or deleted because they were full of insults just because you didn't liked any questions that were difficult to Yoram. Not to say that you publicly acknowledged that you believed Yoram was absolutely legit and you were on his side

I was banned too from the private forum, they have a very weird policy concerning skepticism, but I understand them, since they want to protect their "guests" like Yoram and Nigam.

The fact that they have two strikes should make them reconsider their "open mindedness", that place is a scammers heaven as it is

[NeedHairASAP]

Nobody told him to go, nobody insulted him in a nasty way. !

I'm pretty sure you got kicked off the other forum because the general consensus was you were going past asking good hard questions, and into the realm of insulting and being nasty.

You guys keep acting like I said don't ask questions... which isn't what I said. I'm saying it would be nice to have more information at this point, instead of having no information.

and I'm not advocating leeches for hairloss but before we act like it's absolutely medieval and below any developed nation to use leeches :

an april 2014 article about use in the USA: Woman's ear reattached with help of leeches

"The case is reported in the April 17 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine"

"In 2004, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved these blood-sucking worms for use in medicine."

"Ear reattachment is challenging because of the tiny veins and arteries that feed the area, Sullivan said. Only about 50 successful procedures have been reported in the literature worldwide."

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/04/17/woman-ear-reattached-with-help-leeches/

More use of leeches in leading US institutions by well regarded surgeons and doctors:

http://scienceline.org/2014/01/the-return-of-the-leech/

The BC Medical Journal's history of bloodletting
USA Today's 2004 look at medicinal use of leeches and maggots, when the FDA began permitting it

http://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/health-sciences/blog/leeches-in-modern-medicine/

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/19/5820750/leeches-are-making-a-comeback-in-modern-medicine-really

So if we're going to call Yoram out, lets call out New York City hospitals, Rhode island hospitals, Boston College, handfulls of US surgeons and doctors, and the FDA

[bigentries]

To be fair, it's been just barely 9 months. So it is getting close to being called a fair length of time (one year to 16 months seems to be what we give fin as a timeline).

Of course the other photos showed people with some significant improvement in 4-7 months... so I would have liked to see more at 9 months.

Still, I haven't seen anybody do an examination of any portions of the scalp-- granted the photos aren't the best for comparison. I feel I see some slight improvement in some areas but I'm not into photoshop (or even basic cropping). I'm not sure why other people (arashi) haven't done the "analysis" more closely.

I admit, if there is any improvement, it's not significant.

My main point is that we could have known something was a scam much faster if we didn't chase yoram away with a pitchfork (for almost no reason other than people get off being the white knight).

Lets not forget that arashi was saying vraf was "in on it". That theory seemed to be swept under the rug now though, as it is obviously not the case. Another example of some people "jumping the gun".... to say the least.

Arashi and others have obviously done some good in asking tough questions to people that show up with "new cures"--- but I wish we'd use more of a Socratic method (let the individual hang around so we can gather evidence) rather than scaring away what is often our only way of deciphering scam from non-scam.

That said, I still have interest in pilox but am skeptical as vrafs results are blah. Maybe if we didn't scare yoram away, we'd have more data points than one single dude.

It's weird you bring the Socratic method, that was exactly what was done. The fact that he ran away when he couldn't support his claims is enough proof he was into something. He tried to falsify the first improvement pics (that people like you supported as a big improvement) and he couldn't clarify why the trichoscans didn't made sense

Seriously dude, people like you are poisonous to hair loss communities. You actively white knighted the Pilox crap and are a Gho apologist.
We could have known if he was an scammer way faster if you took the skeptic side instead of defending him when someone pointed something was wrong

[brunobald]

Yoram is not posting on the forums because he was told not to by Pilogics ltd the company that invented Pilox in Israel, they are also his employer.

The company is owned by Erez Manor and Prof Dov Ingman and prob a few other investors we do not know about, not Yoram. Prof Dov Ingman is a respected scientist in Israel, I am assuming this is a project between himself and Erez while they were both working at the universtiy. Erez Manor was Dov Ingmans student while he was studying for his PHD. If you search for Erez Manor you can read his PHD as well as work from Dov Ingman. The work is quailty and Ingman appears to be well practised in medical inovations some of which have already been commercialized and have good reviews and white papers to back up the products with evidence.

I very much doubt two successful scientists would bother spending so much time, money and effort patenting and producing a device intended to be a scam. For one the captital investment in something like this is huge, plastic injection mold tools and jigs used to make a complicated device like this for mass production can run easily into the 100,000's of dollars.

Then we have Yorams documentation of the results, the photos are some of the best we have seen. High resolution, good attempt at keeping both the hair and lighting consistant, and he has a custom jig made to keep the head in the same postion for each photo that can be months apart. All this takes time and money to get right not to mention lots of willing volenteers I think they have over 200 right now, which is a lot by anyone standards.

Of course it could still be a scam just like theradome, they also have a fancy factory and a "nasa space scientist" leading them but I think there is far more meat to the pilox story. I think it is still worth our while seeing what they have to offer when the lanch date arrives. Then we can disect the evidence and out them if it is scam, if it is for real I think they will be up for sending out some free units to testers to review, I know I would do the same if it really works as well as the photos show. Viral marketing is the cheapest and most effective method of lanching a product on a small scale.

[caddarik79]

+1. Nobody 'scared' him away !! He chose to run away when confronted with criticism. Nobody told him to go, nobody insulted him in a nasty way. What you're basically preaching is that people hold off criticism. That would turn a forum into scammers heaven, exactly like HS is scammers heaven, since anybody who sponsors there can have criticism deleted and posters banned. Maybe Yoram should have posted there then. But as long we live in a free world and free forums exists, like thise one, I WILL keep posting criticism to anyone who deserves it ! And if you sell and market blood sucking leechers as a valid and useful hairloss therapy, you deserve criticism !!

+100

[Arashi]

Again why would someone be scared if they had nothing to hide? It's an online forum, which means there's a great deal of anonymity and on top of that Yoram posted in a private forum.

+1. Nobody 'scared' him away !! He chose to run away when confronted with criticism. Nobody told him to go, nobody insulted him in a nasty way. What you're basically preaching is that people hold off criticism. That would turn a forum into scammers heaven, exactly like HS is scammers heaven, since anybody who sponsors there can have criticism deleted and posters banned. Maybe Yoram should have posted there then. But as long we live in a free world and free forums exists, like thise one, I WILL keep posting criticism to anyone who deserves it ! And if you sell and market blood sucking leechers as a valid and useful hairloss therapy, you deserve criticism !!

[NeedHairASAP]

Again why would someone be scared if they had nothing to hide?

Well, obviously you guys can't wrap your head around why a company representative may not want to divulge all their secrets or sit on a forum being harassed and accused.... so I'll just forfeit this argument. You guys are right.

[Haircure]

To be fair, it's been just barely 9 months. So it is getting close to being called a fair length of time (one year to 16 months seems to be what we give fin as a timeline).

Of course the other photos showed people with some significant improvement in 4-7 months... so I would have liked to see more at 9 months.

Still, I haven't seen anybody do an examination of any portions of the scalp-- granted the photos aren't the best for comparison. I feel I see some slight improvement in some areas but I'm not into photoshop (or even basic cropping). I'm not sure why other people (arashi) haven't done the "analysis" more closely.

I admit, if there is any improvement, it's not significant.

My main point is that we could have known something was a scam much faster if we didn't chase yoram away with a pitchfork (for almost no reason other than people get off being the white knight).

Lets not forget that arashi was saying vraf was "in on it". That theory seemed to be swept under the rug now though, as it is obviously not the case. Another example of some people "jumping the gun".... to say the least.

Arashi and others have obviously done some good in asking tough questions to people that show up with "new cures"--- but I wish we'd use more of a Socratic method (let the individual hang around so we can gather evidence) rather than scaring away what is often our only way of deciphering scam from non-scam.

That said, I still have interest in pilox but am skeptical as vrafs results are blah. Maybe if we didn't scare yoram away, we'd have more data points than one single dude.

Again why would someone be scared if they had nothing to hide? It's an online forum, which means there's a great deal of anonymity and on top of that Yoram posted in a private forum. If there is any form of criticism or scrutiny it can be easily dealt with some facts. Even after they both left, Yoram and Vraf still visited the private forum regularly so they were not in fact "scared" away.

I think some people just need to realize when to let go and not let their personal need for a treatment to cloud their judgement.

[NeedHairASAP]

Exactly. Yoram didnt want to explain ANYTHING at all about his product and when confronted with criticism he ran away. Combine that with the fact that this guy is a PROVEN scammer (selling snake oil therapies like blood sucking leeches for christ's sake and all other kinds of crazy scam therapies like acupuncture for hairloss), that the whole story of that hairdresser never made any sense and that now vraf shows 0 improvement after almost a year and you can't possibly say I was wrong ! No, this guy was clearly a scammer and if the hairloss community needs anything like a pain in the ass, it are more scammers trying to make a buck out of our misery !

To be fair, it's been just barely 9 months. So it is getting close to being called a fair length of time (one year to 16 months seems to be what we give fin as a timeline).

Of course the other photos showed people with some significant improvement in 4-7 months... so I would have liked to see more at 9 months.

Still, I haven't seen anybody do an examination of any portions of the scalp-- granted the photos aren't the best for comparison. I feel I see some slight improvement in some areas but I'm not into photoshop (or even basic cropping). I'm not sure why other people (arashi) haven't done the "analysis" more closely.

I admit, if there is any improvement, it's not significant.

My main point is that we could have known something was a scam much faster if we didn't chase yoram away with a pitchfork (for almost no reason other than people get off being the white knight).

Lets not forget that arashi was saying vraf was "in on it". That theory seemed to be swept under the rug now though, as it is obviously not the case. Another example of some people "jumping the gun".... to say the least.

Arashi and others have obviously done some good in asking tough questions to people that show up with "new cures"--- but I wish we'd use more of a Socratic method (let the individual hang around so we can gather evidence) rather than scaring away what is often our only way of deciphering scam from non-scam.

That said, I still have interest in pilox but am skeptical as vrafs results are blah. Maybe if we didn't scare yoram away, we'd have more data points than one single dude.

[Arashi]

What exactly are they scared of? They had no evidence besides some pictures and when asked certain questions they made excuses and left. Tell me that doesn't scream scam to you.

Exactly. Yoram didnt want to explain ANYTHING at all about his product and when confronted with criticism he ran away. Combine that with the fact that this guy is a PROVEN scammer (selling snake oil therapies like blood sucking leeches for christ's sake and all other kinds of crazy scam therapies like acupuncture for hairloss), that the whole story of that hairdresser never made any sense and that now vraf shows 0 improvement after almost a year and you can't possibly say I was wrong ! No, this guy was clearly a scammer and if the hairloss community needs anything like a pain in the ass, it are more scammers trying to make a buck out of our misery !

[bigentries]

Wow, did I just read that scammers should go unopposed because you are "Whiteknighting" bald guys if you show skepticism? At least I know this is coming from a Gho apologist