WCHR 2014 Presentations (Community-funded)

[joachim]

sdsurfin, i don't know what you mean by creating dp cells from scratch.
the one thing is to multiply them and the other thing is to bring them together in a 3D environment so that they are able to play, interact and communicate with each other to form the follicle.
lauster explained this in his video in 2010 already. they are totally aware of all problems and they are not simply arranging some cells together so that they can produce "hair-like" fibers.

this makes me believe that Xu is far away with his knowledge compared to lauster and tsuji.
by the way, if you exactly know that it's decades away after your talk with Xu why did you brought up the idea to crowdfund him?

from what i read and heard so far, the biochip is not only to keep an healthy environmont for existing follicles, it's also for providing an environment for the cells to form the 3D structure of the follicle. but only for 1 follicle. the biochip arrangement has to be multiplied many times to create different environment chambers for each follicle. i could be wrong on that, but this is how i imagined that all the time.

we need the recorded video of dr. atac's presentation to get a picture of the whole process.

[Slam1523]

Why is everyone expecting such a long wait if the follicles can be reproduced with exactness? Obviously the FDA will hold it up here, but why isn't it on the cusp of being used in other countries? Is there a hold up that I'm missing? From what I've read follicles can be cloned for lack of a better word, so now what?

[joachim]

arashi, do you have a link to the experiments jahoda and tsuji labs did when they created a follicle? how did they exactly produce the follicle? how did the follicle with hair look like? like a normal hair with the same properties? is there something we are missing here?

[hellouser]

Why is everyone expecting such a long wait if the follicles can be reproduced with exactness? Obviously the FDA will hold it up here, but why isn't it on the cusp of being used in other countries? Is there a hold up that I'm missing? From what I've read follicles can be cloned for lack of a better word, so now what?

Thats why I suggested that we fund the researchers but make it available in countries where it is allowed. They could then use a portion of the profits from those procedures to further fund ongoing efforts to pass through clinical trials where health ministries are a nuisance; FDA.

[TheSwingingGate]

@sdsurfin

Good points about the condition of the entire scalp. My thoughts have been along the same lines. I have miniaturization everywhere, and my entire scalp has become hard and inflamed.

I agree that it is a problem of inflammation and immune response.

Hopefully these brilliant researchers are well on their way to tackling the scalp environment issue as well.

Being a diffuse thinner, isn't fun!

[sdsurfin]

Why is everyone expecting such a long wait if the follicles can be reproduced with exactness? Obviously the FDA will hold it up here, but why isn't it on the cusp of being used in other countries? Is there a hold up that I'm missing? From what I've read follicles can be cloned for lack of a better word, so now what?

Because it can't!!!! what is so hard to understand??? No one, and I mean no one, has created a fully functioning human follicle from all human cells. Lauster made a measly one, and christiano et al grew a measly one in foreskin on a mouse. Tsuji used MOUSE DP cells and human epithelial cells to grow hair on a bald mouse. They can also no create a hair like fiber from human cells. This is different from a full follicle with a cycling temrinal hair and sebaceous glands etc etc.

Also, you are all wrong about creating new DP cells. They can culture cells from the back of your head, multiply them to some degree, and now retain good inductivity (which does not mean full gene expression, it just means they are able to create some kind of hair). What Dr. Xu is working on is making DP cells from stem cells, like he did with epithelial cells. When you culture existing DP cells, it is time consuming, cells get damaged and lose gene expression, and it is not a productive way to make the basics for new follicles. this is what Dr. Xu has explained if you take the time to read my previous posts. He has stated that with good funding, his team can make DP cells from stem cells and then work on making a whole follicle, but that it will take around ten years. This is pretty much where all the teams are at. yes, someone will probably make a hair follicle in the next decade (and even then, we don't know if it will have a sebaceous gland or if it will survive and cycle corecly). then they will have to figure out how to mass produce these, test them, go through FDA, figure out how they are implanted by the thousands, figure out if they will survive in balding scalp (especially for those who are already bald, i assume the fibrotic and scarred nature of the scalp will pose further problems), and who knows how many other obstacles. In other words, I'm interested in the science and helping it progress for new generations, but we are pretty screwed. That's why when Aaron gardner wrote to me, he said that a good treatment is "somewhere on the horizon" and that they are "moving towards it", but "no one knows what obstacles will arise."

People on this forum don't understand science, and the complications that come with creating a human organ. it's amazing that they know what they know, but what we really need now is just a treatment that keeps us looking decent until we're around 50 and dont give a crap anymore, and that doesnt kill our brains and penises. I'm fully down to crowdfund, but I don't expect it to help my generation much, unless is still care about this crap when I'm an old man.

[hellouser]

@sdsurfin

Good points about the condition of the entire scalp. My thoughts have been along the same lines. I have miniaturization everywhere, and my entire scalp has become hard and inflamed.

I agree that it is a problem of inflammation and immune response.

Hopefully these brilliant researchers are well on their way to tackling the scalp environment issue as well.

Being a diffuse thinner, isn't fun!

Then why are transplanted hairs from donor areas (sides and back) immune to miniaturization?

[NeedHairASAP]

have cots or linder post their crowdfund here: http://www.crowdcube.com/

then anybody giving money has an actual stake in the profits after, rather than just giving it away like charity.

[Arashi]

Because it can't!!!! what is so hard to understand??? No one, and I mean no one, has created a fully functioning human follicle from all human cells. Lauster made a measly one, and christiano et al grew a measly one in foreskin on a mouse. Tsuji used MOUSE DP cells and human epithelial cells to grow hair on a bald mouse.

1) The only reason that Jahoda's hair was 'measly' was that in the process of culturing the DP cells, not all genes were retained, some got lost in the process. According to Desmond all research groups said that this year they've all overcome that problem and can now culture DP cells while retaining all genes expressed !

2) You're wrong about Tsuji, they grew a HUMAN hair follicle on a mouse, based on cells taken from human donors. The DNA of the produced hair was analysed and it turned out it was 100% human.

So, what's then still between us and a cure ? That's exactly the question that Desmond asked them and he said he got an answer from Lauster's group and that he's just waiting on their green light to tell that to us.

[TheSwingingGate]

Couple points.

Not everyone that has a hair transplant is successful. By and large most are, but some people's transplanted hair eventually wipes out in the balding areas.

Perhaps the donor was unstable, not yet considered part of the MPB "zone" at time of transplant, the work wasn't done properly, there could be several reasons.

My point Hellouser, was more from a personal standpoint. I am fairly certain I have DUPA, cannot tolerate Finasteride, and may not have a stable donor area. My entire scalp is affected, man it went quick, so I hope that there is some research going into the scalp environment along with the follicular neogenesis. I want my scalp to feel normal again too some day!

Further, I am hairstylist, I have felt thousand of scalps over the years, and there seems to be strong correlation between scalp condition and hair miniaturization, or degradation. These clients are men and women, and while not all of them are "balding" but rather diffusely thinning, I have been able to watch the process happen over the course of years.

Lastly, I don't buy in to the theory that balding is just a part of getting older. I doesn't happen to everyone. I have seen 70, 80 year old men and women with full heads of hair. Everyone's face ages, that is fact. Part of getting older. Not everyone goes bald. If it was part of the aging process, it would happen to everyone. I have even watched my clients for changes in face shape correlated to the balding process, thinking one aging area surely would correlate to the other so close on the head, nope, no connection.

[Slam1523]

Because it can't!!!! what is so hard to understand??? No one, and I mean no one, has created a fully functioning human follicle from all human cells. Lauster made a measly one, and christiano et al grew a measly one in foreskin on a mouse. Tsuji used MOUSE DP cells and human epithelial cells to grow hair on a bald mouse. They can also no create a hair like fiber from human cells. This is different from a full follicle with a cycling temrinal hair and sebaceous glands etc etc.

Also, you are all wrong about creating new DP cells. They can culture cells from the back of your head, multiply them to some degree, and now retain good inductivity (which does not mean full gene expression, it just means they are able to create some kind of hair). What Dr. Xu is working on is making DP cells from stem cells, like he did with epithelial cells. When you culture existing DP cells, it is time consuming, cells get damaged and lose gene expression, and it is not a productive way to make the basics for new follicles. this is what Dr. Xu has explained if you take the time to read my previous posts. He has stated that with good funding, his team can make DP cells from stem cells and then work on making a whole follicle, but that it will take around ten years. This is pretty much where all the teams are at. yes, someone will probably make a hair follicle in the next decade (and even then, we don't know if it will have a sebaceous gland or if it will survive and cycle corecly). then they will have to figure out how to mass produce these, test them, go through FDA, figure out how they are implanted by the thousands, figure out if they will survive in balding scalp (especially for those who are already bald, i assume the fibrotic and scarred nature of the scalp will pose further problems), and who knows how many other obstacles. In other words, I'm interested in the science and helping it progress for new generations, but we are pretty screwed. That's why when Aaron gardner wrote to me, he said that a good treatment is "somewhere on the horizon" and that they are "moving towards it", but "no one knows what obstacles will arise."

People on this forum don't understand science, and the complications that come with creating a human organ. it's amazing that they know what they know, but what we really need now is just a treatment that keeps us looking decent until we're around 50 and dont give a crap anymore, and that doesnt kill our brains and penises. I'm fully down to crowdfund, but I don't expect it to help my generation much, unless is still care about this crap when I'm an old man.

K just a couple things... First of all calm down! It was a question so pull the line bavk on that thong of your's so it doesn't ride any higher and toss bavk a few ruby relaxers... Thanks for the explanation but bro take a few anxiety mess before blowing up next time!

[joachim]

so what you're saying, sdsurfin, is that Xu goes the way of creating dp cells from iPS cells (pluripotent stem cells), which are easy to multiply but still not figured out how to turn them into DP cells. is this what you mean?

because this is a whole different approach. both ways lead to the result we want.
if culturing DP cells is solved now by multiplying them, there is no need to go the way with iPS cells anymore (DP cells problem can only be seen as solved if gene expression is achieved). if Xu manages to create DP cells from iPS cells then he still has the major problem that he has to arrange the cells in a 3D environment so that they form a follicle. a task which other teams are doing already.

about the sebasceaus glands: from what i read so far, i'm pretty sure the gland is not required while creating the follicles. once the follicles are implanted they will attach to the existing ones in the scalp. because the glands are still all there in the scalp, independent of bald or not bald.
also, none of these researchers ever said that they have a problem with the seb. glands. none of them is trying to create them too. (or did i miss something?)

regarding hair cycles: this is actually a good question. best case scenario would be that the lab-grown follicles do not fall into the normal cycling scheme and just produce hair all the time =)
worst case: they fall out after 2 or 3 years and don't grow back. so you would have to go for treatments every few years. wouldn't be that bad. if this were the case and they would try to market it under this circumstances, they would have to drastically reduce the price of the procedure.

[Arashi]

so what you're saying, sdsurfin, is that Xu goes the way of creating dp cells from iPS cells (pluripotent stem cells), which are easy to multiply but still not figured out how to turn them into DP cells. is this what you mean?

because this is a whole different approach. both ways lead to the result we want.
if culturing DP cells is solved now by multiplying them, there is no need to go the way with iPS cells anymore (DP cells problem can only be seen as solved if gene expression is achieved). if Xu manages to create DP cells from iPS cells then he still has the major problem that he has to arrange the cells in a 3D environment so that they form a follicle. a task which other teams are doing already.

about the sebasceaus glands: from what i read so far, i'm pretty sure the gland is not required while creating the follicles. once the follicles are implanted they will attach to the existing ones in the scalp. because the glands are still all there in the scalp, independent of bald or not bald.
also, none of these researchers ever said that they have a problem with the seb. glands. none of them is trying to create them too. (or did i miss something?)

regarding hair cycles: this is actually a good question. best case scenario would be that the lab-grown follicles do not fall into the normal cycling scheme and just produce hair all the time =)
worst case: they fall out after 2 or 3 years and don't grow back. so you would have to go for treatments every few years. wouldn't be that bad. if this were the case and they would try to market it under this circumstances, they would have to drastically reduce the price of the procedure.

Yep you're right Joachim !

Man I'm just dying to hear from Desmond what he's found out from Lauster's group regarding what's still standing between us and a cure. Can't wait to hear it !

[joachim]

also if we take a look at the video where lauster presents his follicle back in 2010 it looks like they're approach of creating the 3D environment for forming the follicle is different from what we heard from others. culturing methods like hanging drops or pva tubes etc. are not used here it seems to me. seems like they have a special method here to let the cells interact with each other and form the follicle. this is maybe the reason why they are ahead of others in regards of dp gene expression.

other thoughts?

[Arashi]

other thoughts?

We need Desmond to enlighten us He's got all the info we desperately seek... Is the roadblock that's left just a minor one ? Like getting the HF's to develop hair in the right angle ? Or is it something that will need a lot of fundamental research ? The only hint that Desmond has given us so far is that we're 'VERY close', I'm just hoping that that's not just his optimism speaking