(CB-03-01 Vehicle Research) PhD Student in Chemistry

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  • adam k
    Member
    • Aug 2013
    • 78

    Iontophoresis delivers a medicine or other chemical through the skin. It propels high concentrations of a charged substance, transdermally by repulsive electromotive force, through the skin. A small electric current is applied to an iontophoretic chamber placed on the skin, containing a charged active agent and its solvent vehicle. Another chamber or a skin electrode carries the return current. A chamber are filled with a solution containing an active ingredient and its solvent vehicle. The positively charged chamber, called the cathode, will repel a positively charged chemical species, whereas the negatively charged chamber, called the anode, will repel a negatively charged species into the skin. Hence if our compound is positively charged we place it in the cathode and if it’s negatively charges we place it in the anode.

    The problem faced by us is that CB 03 01 is chemically neutral. Most steroids are chemically neutral molecules at physiological pH though it is sometimes possible to chemically modify them in order to form prodrugs containing an acidic group (e.g., sulphate or phosphate) that are negatively charged in physiological conditions. Once the produg passes the skin it is hydrolysed back to its original active form. For example, dexamethasone phosphate is a prodrug of dexamethasone and is doubly charged at physiological pH. Iontophoresis from the cathode is therefore expected to increase the delivery of these anionic prodrugs.

    My theory is that Cosmo used a phosphating/or sulphating agent to add a phosphate/or a sulphate ester to the alcohol functional group on carbon-21. Below is the scheme:



    In a previous post I was confused as to how Iontophoresis could achieve such few applications whereas the topical would require once/twice daily applications. This was also echoed by a few people and I’m guessing the following. As a prodrug needs to be hydrolysed twice to reach the inactive cortexolone form (1st hydrolysis = active form CB, second hydrolysis = inactive form Cortexolone) this would be able to stay in the skin for longer. Another guess is that Cosmo used a phosphating reagent that had a bulky group which would cause steric hindrance to the phosphate ester, thereby slowing the rate of hydrolysis even more and keeping the prodrug in the skin for longer.

    Now the problem with this is that is an extremely tricky reaction, with all kinds of sh*t that can happen and all kinds of side reactions and pathways can occur. This type of reaction can only be done under controlled conditions in a lab with other reagents to help facilitate the process. It is not something that we could do ourselves. But this is just the first step of the problem. Let’s just say we were to obtain the pro drug form. It is not a simple case of just wacking it into a vehicle and then using Iontophoresis.

    The following is just to show you how complex it would be. It would need to be prepared in deionized water at a specific pH. To avoid the inclusion of unwanted anions inevitable when a strong acid is used to lower the pH, an equimolar mixture of the diacid and its conjugate base would need to be dissolved in water to obtain a final conc. of CB-03-01-Phos. CB-03-01-H2-Phos would have to be prepared from the disodium salt by adding HCl to a solution of CB-03-01-Na2-Phos in water. The insoluble dihydrogen acid would precipitate and would need to be recovered by liquid extraction, leaving a powder of CB-03-01-H2-Phos which contains only trace amounts of unwanted ions.

    Then to carry out Iontophoresis, a specific procedure would have to be carried out by mixing phosphate-buffered saline, sodium, potassium, chloride and phosphate at a certain pH.

    As you can see, the above processes are complex, tedious and require lots of reagents and special techniques. Also ionto requires using sticky electrodes on the skin. I don't see how this could be attached to the scalp unless somebody was slick bald. That is another problem. Therefore based on my current research, my view is that using Iontophoresis ourselves is not viable.

    Comment

    • hiilikeyourbeard
      Senior Member
      • Jun 2013
      • 138

      so just a working vehicle for topical then we should focus on?

      Comment

      • adam k
        Member
        • Aug 2013
        • 78

        Originally posted by hiilikeyourbeard
        so just a working vehicle for topical then we should focus on?
        Yeah I think that would be best. Its still early days. I pray that Hellouser achieves great results.

        Comment

        • hellouser
          Senior Member
          • May 2012
          • 4419

          Originally posted by adam k
          Yeah I think that would be best. Its still early days. I pray that Hellouser achieves great results.
          I've made a 4 day batch of CB in 50/50 concentration of ethanol and pg. (4ml total with 50mg of CB thus 12.5mg/1ml)

          First day I skipped minox but took CB at 1ml. Next day shedding was down significantly during the day, and also a little while washing hair.

          Second day I took both minox and CB. After that, shedding throughout the day (today actually) is great although there was still many hairs coming out in the morning when washing it.

          Each day prior to using CB I was shedding heavily during the day, my desk would be riddled with hairs, a minimum of 30. Now? Maybe 5-10... In fact, everytime I used to brush my hand through my hair, I would get many hairs falling out, sometimes 10+ after brushing hair for about 5-10 seconds. Now, either NO hair or a single strand.

          Mind you, I'm only using a 1.2% concentration at 1ml and ethanol rather than oleyl. I'll be updating my log frequently, I won't be taking any pics for the next while except for maybe baseline photos. The hair I had between April - June was great, not so thin to look pathetic but dense enough to be able to style it kind of messy. Since early July i've been shedding insanely which almost feels like I've lost a full norwood level.

          I hate this disease. I've seen some results from PSI and may be jumping on the bandwagon as it regrew hair at the hairline for some members. That coupled with density from CB would make me pretty happy.

          Comment

          • ragsta
            Junior Member
            • Aug 2013
            • 7

            The Salvo hormone delivery product i posted about was designed for systematic hormone absorption - which it should be. I read a post by HenryV on a another forum that hormone absorption should be between 30-70%. I think he is affiliated with the company though but his posts are very knowledgeable. Don't think it'll be long before those using the vehicle will post logs for the hormones.

            Comment

            • adam k
              Member
              • Aug 2013
              • 78

              Originally posted by hellouser
              I've made a 4 day batch of CB in 50/50 concentration of ethanol and pg. (4ml total with 50mg of CB thus 12.5mg/1ml)

              First day I skipped minox but took CB at 1ml. Next day shedding was down significantly during the day, and also a little while washing hair.

              Second day I took both minox and CB. After that, shedding throughout the day (today actually) is great although there was still many hairs coming out in the morning when washing it.

              Each day prior to using CB I was shedding heavily during the day, my desk would be riddled with hairs, a minimum of 30. Now? Maybe 5-10... In fact, everytime I used to brush my hand through my hair, I would get many hairs falling out, sometimes 10+ after brushing hair for about 5-10 seconds. Now, either NO hair or a single strand.

              Mind you, I'm only using a 1.2% concentration at 1ml and ethanol rather than oleyl. I'll be updating my log frequently, I won't be taking any pics for the next while except for maybe baseline photos. The hair I had between April - June was great, not so thin to look pathetic but dense enough to be able to style it kind of messy. Since early July i've been shedding insanely which almost feels like I've lost a full norwood level.

              I hate this disease. I've seen some results from PSI and may be jumping on the bandwagon as it regrew hair at the hairline for some members. That coupled with density from CB would make me pretty happy.
              Great stuff mate and thank you on behalf of everyone!

              Hopefully ethanol will be okay, if it is then all the better as it seems to be more easier to buy. Yeah it is a 1.25% conc. you are using. In your previous post you mentioned 12.5% and I didnt know how you calculated that.

              We are all sick of this disease. Day by day my hairline is eroding. Its slow torture.

              Comment

              • hellouser
                Senior Member
                • May 2012
                • 4419

                Originally posted by adam k
                Great stuff mate and thank you on behalf of everyone!

                Hopefully ethanol will be okay, if it is then all the better as it seems to be more easier to buy. Yeah it is a 1.25% conc. you are using. In your previous post you mentioned 12.5% and I didnt know how you calculated that.

                We are all sick of this disease. Day by day my hairline is eroding. Its slow torture.
                I think I wrote 12.5% by accident where as it should have been 12.5mg per application. My bad.

                I'll keep everyone posted though. Hopefully I'll be too busy enjoying hair to make frequent contributions, that way you guys will know its working, lol.

                Comment

                • hellouser
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2012
                  • 4419

                  Adam K:

                  A bit off topic here, but can you chime in on this:



                  Particularly in regards to 'Cosmetic GF-Nano solution' Supposedly its a vehicle that can carry a substance with a molecular weight in the kilodalton... where as, as you know, skin doesn't allow anything above 500 dalton to pass through it.

                  Thoughts?

                  Comment

                  • lilpauly
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2012
                    • 1084

                    Originally posted by hellouser
                    Adam K:

                    A bit off topic here, but can you chime in on this:



                    Particularly in regards to 'Cosmetic GF-Nano solution' Supposedly its a vehicle that can carry a substance with a molecular weight in the kilodalton... where as, as you know, skin doesn't allow anything above 500 dalton to pass through it.

                    Thoughts?
                    Hellouser it's the vehicle ,plus the dermaroller.

                    Comment

                    • lilpauly
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2012
                      • 1084

                      There is a derma roller study that was amazing

                      Comment

                      • hellouser
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2012
                        • 4419

                        Also, Adam K:

                        One member on another forum pointed out that Cosmo used hydroelectrophoresis to skirt around the positive/negative charged CB in order to penetrate CB as a neutral substance through the skin.

                        I've heard that such a device at a reasonable price does not exist.

                        Thoughts?

                        Comment

                        • adam k
                          Member
                          • Aug 2013
                          • 78

                          Originally posted by hellouser
                          Adam K:

                          A bit off topic here, but can you chime in on this:



                          Particularly in regards to 'Cosmetic GF-Nano solution' Supposedly its a vehicle that can carry a substance with a molecular weight in the kilodalton... where as, as you know, skin doesn't allow anything above 500 dalton to pass through it.

                          Thoughts?
                          These special delivery systems have been designed to try and circumvent the problems faced by molecules generally over 500 Mr. The nano just refers to the size (10^-9m) of the 3D sphere which encapsulates the compound. The sphere can be composed of different things so you can have lipid nanoparticles (liposomes), polymer nanoparticles etc. There are a quite a few journals about this and a few that involve growth factors. I'm not saying the product is bunk (It might very well be excellent) though I would urge caution as with anything. The word Nano sounds great and is a great selling point. Try and get as much information about the product and use primary literature to substantiate claims.

                          Originally posted by hellouser
                          Also, Adam K:

                          One member on another forum pointed out that Cosmo used hydroelectrophoresis to skirt around the positive/negative charged CB in order to penetrate CB as a neutral substance through the skin.

                          I've heard that such a device at a reasonable price does not exist.

                          Thoughts?
                          I did a journal search with the word 'hydroelectrophoresis' and I have virtually no hits. I have no idea what this is. IF in fact there's something to this then its far too obscure and not enough information.

                          Comment

                          • adam k
                            Member
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 78

                            'hydroelectrophoresis' sounds like it would still requires charged molecules if it were a real thing. And the only search for this gives me a company called Hydrofor. This should be discarded.

                            Comment

                            • lilpauly
                              Senior Member
                              • Feb 2012
                              • 1084

                              adam the nano solution is this













                              Comment

                              • lilpauly
                                Senior Member
                                • Feb 2012
                                • 1084

                                .

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